Dutch Sierra Cosworth 4x4 - home made power measurement
08-02-2017, 01:44 PM
#81
10K+ Poster!!
I do like a decent caliper conversion using other manufacturers brakes as they are always cheaper...I have often thought that the Range Rover supercharged calipers would be goo on a car with big wheels.
08-02-2017, 07:58 PM
#82
Advanced PassionFord User
Range Rover calipers have been done already. Dingla has them on his focos
08-02-2017, 08:25 PM
#83
10K+ Poster!!
I thought I had hear something was already running them.
My old E55 AMG had monster 6 or 8 pots iirc, it had massive discs too, I bet they would work well as they did on that near 200mph 1800 kg barge.
My old E55 AMG had monster 6 or 8 pots iirc, it had massive discs too, I bet they would work well as they did on that near 200mph 1800 kg barge.
09-02-2017, 07:48 AM
#84
I looked at quite a bit of calipers before deciding to use these. At first I wanted to use the 6 pot Porsche/VW 18Z calipers, but I wasn't sure if they would fit inside my 17" wheels as the 18Z means they are meant for 18" wheels. Porsche also has 17Z calipers that are meant for 17" wheels, but those calipers have bigger pistons that will not match well with the Cosworth master brake cylinder. I guess that could also be the same for the Range Rover calipers, but I can't find the piston size on those.
These Mercedes Brembo calipers have 44/40 mm pistons that match perfectly with the Cosworth. BMW E38 Brembo calipers also use these size pistons, but they only use a 316 mm disc which means the radius of the caliper wouldn't match well with a disc that is much bigger. The Mercedes caliper uses a 330 mm disc so that's less of an issue. With the Mercedes caliper the disc is also thicker (32 mm vs. 28 mm for the BMW E38) which gives better cooling. And I believe that if you have a huge caliper covering much of the disc you will have less cooling as well.
All in all there is quite a lot that influences how the brakes perform, but I hope these will work great as it is quite big upgrade over standard. At least the calipers were cheap (125 pounds
) and brake pads are also not that expensive. Other nice looking calipers are the 8 pots on an Audi RS4/RS6/R8, but I think they will be overkill on a light car as a Sierra.
These Mercedes Brembo calipers have 44/40 mm pistons that match perfectly with the Cosworth. BMW E38 Brembo calipers also use these size pistons, but they only use a 316 mm disc which means the radius of the caliper wouldn't match well with a disc that is much bigger. The Mercedes caliper uses a 330 mm disc so that's less of an issue. With the Mercedes caliper the disc is also thicker (32 mm vs. 28 mm for the BMW E38) which gives better cooling. And I believe that if you have a huge caliper covering much of the disc you will have less cooling as well.
All in all there is quite a lot that influences how the brakes perform, but I hope these will work great as it is quite big upgrade over standard. At least the calipers were cheap (125 pounds
) and brake pads are also not that expensive. Other nice looking calipers are the 8 pots on an Audi RS4/RS6/R8, but I think they will be overkill on a light car as a Sierra.
24-03-2017, 07:05 AM
#86
The only downside of upgrading the front brakes is that the brake balance isn't as it should anymore. On this site you can determine what the front/rear brake balance is, depending on piston size, disc diameter, radial height of the brake pads and some other parameters:
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/bias-calculator/
I put in all the parameters for the standard setup, it then shows that originally 63.3% of the braking is down by the front.
With the 320 mm front brake discs I previously had the balance shifted to 70.8% at the front wheels.
With my new setup the balance shifts even further, to 75.8% at the front.
The result will be that at maximum brake pressure the rear wheels won't brake hard enough compared to the front and the car will even have a longer braking distance than originally. It will also make the front of the car dive more during braking and make the rear lift more. The braking force at the rear actually reduces the lift at the rear that is caused by the weight shift to the front when braking. So to get the best out of it something should also be done at the rear.
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/bias-calculator/
I put in all the parameters for the standard setup, it then shows that originally 63.3% of the braking is down by the front.
With the 320 mm front brake discs I previously had the balance shifted to 70.8% at the front wheels.
With my new setup the balance shifts even further, to 75.8% at the front.
The result will be that at maximum brake pressure the rear wheels won't brake hard enough compared to the front and the car will even have a longer braking distance than originally. It will also make the front of the car dive more during braking and make the rear lift more. The braking force at the rear actually reduces the lift at the rear that is caused by the weight shift to the front when braking. So to get the best out of it something should also be done at the rear.
Last edited by Marc sierra; 27-07-2017 at 02:58 PM.
24-03-2017, 01:00 PM
#88
At the front I have DS2500 pads, which have a friction coefficient of 0.42. I guess 0.50 is about the highest you can get, but that only brings it to 72.5% which isn't a big difference. Plus I'd rather have the same type of pads allround. That way they behave the same when they heat up. With a little heat in them the DS2500 pads brake harder than when cold. So I'd like to have DS2500 pads at the rear too.
24-03-2017, 07:26 PM
#89
10K+ Poster!!
Wouldn't a brake bias valve allow you to balance it?
31-03-2017, 06:38 AM
#91
To keep the stroke of the brake pedal equal and to not create a difference between front and because of this I didn't want to change the size of the rear brake piston much. There are some Brembo calipers available in a size that would be OK, but none of them have a handbrake designed into the caliper. Because of unsprung weight I don't like the idea of having two calipers, so I decided to just keep the standard calipers for the rear. Besides that the original calipers use brake pads with a low radial height, which means they are quite far to the outside edge of the brake disc which is good to increase the rear brake torque.
With the standard caliper there is a 300 and 325 mm disc option. I calculated what the brake balance would be with the 325 mm kit. It would bring it back to 67.9% on the front, which is not that far from the original 63.3%.
So I ordered a 325 mm rear brake kit from Reyland.
The difference between the 325 mm disc and standard disc is quite big.
With the standard caliper there is a 300 and 325 mm disc option. I calculated what the brake balance would be with the 325 mm kit. It would bring it back to 67.9% on the front, which is not that far from the original 63.3%.
So I ordered a 325 mm rear brake kit from Reyland.
The difference between the 325 mm disc and standard disc is quite big.
Last edited by Marc sierra; 27-07-2017 at 03:00 PM.
03-04-2017, 07:55 AM
#95
This weekend I spend some time fitting the new rear brakes. First I fitted the adapter bracket for the caliper to the bearing carrier.
After that the brake disc was fitted so I could test fit the caliper carrier.
Due to the bigger diameter of the disc the radius of the caliper carrier doesn't match with the disc. So I have done some filing on the carrier to make it fit.
Now it has about 1 mm clearance between the disc and the caliper carrier. The expansion coefficient of steel is 12 um/m.K, so if the disc with a radius of 162.5 mm warms up 500 degrees the radius increases with 0.975 mm. So 1 mm should be enough, but I can always increase the clearance a bit more if needed.
And after bleeding the brakes, because of the longer brake hose that was needed, the wheels could be fitted again.
After that the brake disc was fitted so I could test fit the caliper carrier.
Due to the bigger diameter of the disc the radius of the caliper carrier doesn't match with the disc. So I have done some filing on the carrier to make it fit.
Now it has about 1 mm clearance between the disc and the caliper carrier. The expansion coefficient of steel is 12 um/m.K, so if the disc with a radius of 162.5 mm warms up 500 degrees the radius increases with 0.975 mm. So 1 mm should be enough, but I can always increase the clearance a bit more if needed.
And after bleeding the brakes, because of the longer brake hose that was needed, the wheels could be fitted again.
Last edited by Marc sierra; 27-07-2017 at 03:03 PM.
03-04-2017, 01:46 PM
#96
PassionFord Regular
and that's quite an upgrade...
great job Marc
!
keep us posted...
great job Marc
!keep us posted...
03-04-2017, 03:46 PM
#98
Unfortunately there were no instructions with the kit. How to fit it is straightforward, but not to file material away or how much. The 1 mm I did was my own estimate. It would be nice if instructions would say how much clearance is needed.
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Mark V8 (03-04-2017)
04-04-2017, 05:38 AM
#100
I'm quite sure that they will also need to be filed down for the 300 mm conversion, though it will probably be less material to remove.
It is actually quite logical and can't be prevented when going to a larger radius disc with the same caliper. The brake pad needs to sit at the correct position, which means the outer edges of the caliper carrier will always be close to/catch the disc.
For the 308 and 330 mm kit for the front of the 4x4 Cosworth it says on the Reyland website:
For the rear it is comparable, although there were no instructions.
It is actually quite logical and can't be prevented when going to a larger radius disc with the same caliper. The brake pad needs to sit at the correct position, which means the outer edges of the caliper carrier will always be close to/catch the disc.
For the 308 and 330 mm kit for the front of the 4x4 Cosworth it says on the Reyland website:
Minor modification is required to the standard caliper carriers, leading and trailing edges need a small amount filing away (we will provide instuctions).
For the rear it is comparable, although there were no instructions.
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Mark V8 (04-04-2017)
21-04-2017, 10:44 AM
#102
Last Friday I did another trip to the Nurburgring together with 2 colleagues. The GP track was open from 9.00 to 20.00 and the weather was going to be reasonably good, so a good day for some nice driving. In Germany the Friday before Easter is a national holiday and apparently that is known as Car Friday at the Nurburgring, which meant it was really crowded. People were even sitting next to the road on folding chairs with BBQs, watching all the cars. With that huge amount of people I was worried the track would be very busy as well, but luckily that wasn't the case.
Since the video quality of my phone began to annoy me I decided to get a GoPro. The only downside is that Harry's Laptimer doesn't support the GoPro Hero Session 5 yet. So I also recorded everything with my phone to be sure and had the GoPro video everything separately. Unfortunately the GoPro made hunderds of photos instead of a video during the second and fourth session. Don't know how that happened.
But I did manage to import the GoPro video from the first and third session to the Laptimer data. The difference in video quality is really big so next time I will make sure the GoPro is really recording.
The first session on the track I had to get used to it again, it's not really the same as driving on the motorway in the traffic jams.
During the second sessions around 8:50 I was overtaken by a biker who was a bit suicidal in my opinion. At the bend where I am doing about 100 mph he passed on the inside while I was just going towards the apex of the corner. Luckily I already saw him in my mirror, otherwise we've (or mostly him) would have had a big problem. The same biker had some problems with a black Lexus a bit later. At 9:13 he's riding next to the Lexus to point out the Lexus driver is an idiot. In that he was right though as the Lexus driver didn't pay attention to anyone around him. When I passed the Lexus on the straight (9:25) he passed me again just before the corner and then went straight into the gravel. I guess his brakes overheated. When I was still behind him there was big black cloud of brake dust coming from his front wheels each time he braked.
The third session I started just in front of my colleague in his Opel Speester (Vauxhall VX220). Until 4:50 he is behind but after that I let him pass as I was holding him up when braking and turning into the corners.
He also had a video of the same session where I am in front of him. On the straight I am pulling away but with braking turning into corners he is catching up again.
And a video of the last session of the day.
In the end none of my laps was faster than the fastest lap of last year. The brakes felt very good but the car was not very stabile when braking hard and turning into corners. According to the laptimer I did manage to reach 1.2g for a moment while braking from high speed, while before I never really went above 0.8g. I guess there is still some improvements to be made to the suspension to get a more positive feeling. I have the feeling the shocks are the biggest reason for my lack of trust while braking and turning in corners, they just need too much time to settle the car.
Since the video quality of my phone began to annoy me I decided to get a GoPro. The only downside is that Harry's Laptimer doesn't support the GoPro Hero Session 5 yet. So I also recorded everything with my phone to be sure and had the GoPro video everything separately. Unfortunately the GoPro made hunderds of photos instead of a video during the second and fourth session. Don't know how that happened.
But I did manage to import the GoPro video from the first and third session to the Laptimer data. The difference in video quality is really big so next time I will make sure the GoPro is really recording.The first session on the track I had to get used to it again, it's not really the same as driving on the motorway in the traffic jams.
During the second sessions around 8:50 I was overtaken by a biker who was a bit suicidal in my opinion. At the bend where I am doing about 100 mph he passed on the inside while I was just going towards the apex of the corner. Luckily I already saw him in my mirror, otherwise we've (or mostly him) would have had a big problem. The same biker had some problems with a black Lexus a bit later. At 9:13 he's riding next to the Lexus to point out the Lexus driver is an idiot. In that he was right though as the Lexus driver didn't pay attention to anyone around him. When I passed the Lexus on the straight (9:25) he passed me again just before the corner and then went straight into the gravel. I guess his brakes overheated. When I was still behind him there was big black cloud of brake dust coming from his front wheels each time he braked.
The third session I started just in front of my colleague in his Opel Speester (Vauxhall VX220). Until 4:50 he is behind but after that I let him pass as I was holding him up when braking and turning into the corners.
He also had a video of the same session where I am in front of him. On the straight I am pulling away but with braking turning into corners he is catching up again.
And a video of the last session of the day.
In the end none of my laps was faster than the fastest lap of last year. The brakes felt very good but the car was not very stabile when braking hard and turning into corners. According to the laptimer I did manage to reach 1.2g for a moment while braking from high speed, while before I never really went above 0.8g. I guess there is still some improvements to be made to the suspension to get a more positive feeling. I have the feeling the shocks are the biggest reason for my lack of trust while braking and turning in corners, they just need too much time to settle the car.
24-05-2017, 05:39 PM
#103
I looked at quite a bit of calipers before deciding to use these. At first I wanted to use the 6 pot Porsche/VW 18Z calipers, but I wasn't sure if they would fit inside my 17" wheels as the 18Z means they are meant for 18" wheels. Porsche also has 17Z calipers that are meant for 17" wheels, but those calipers have bigger pistons that will not match well with the Cosworth master brake cylinder. I guess that could also be the same for the Range Rover calipers, but I can't find the piston size on those.
These Mercedes Brembo calipers have 44/40 mm pistons that match perfectly with the Cosworth. BMW E38 Brembo calipers also use these size pistons, but they only use a 316 mm disc which means the radius of the caliper wouldn't match well with a disc that is much bigger. The Mercedes caliper uses a 330 mm disc so that's less of an issue. With the Mercedes caliper the disc is also thicker (32 mm vs. 28 mm for the BMW E38) which gives better cooling. And I believe that if you have a huge caliper covering much of the disc you will have less cooling as well.
All in all there is quite a lot that influences how the brakes perform, but I hope these will work great as it is quite big upgrade over standard. At least the calipers were cheap (125 pounds) and brake pads are also not that expensive. Other nice looking calipers are the 8 pots on an Audi RS4/RS6/R8, but I think they will be overkill on a light car as a Sierra.
These Mercedes Brembo calipers have 44/40 mm pistons that match perfectly with the Cosworth. BMW E38 Brembo calipers also use these size pistons, but they only use a 316 mm disc which means the radius of the caliper wouldn't match well with a disc that is much bigger. The Mercedes caliper uses a 330 mm disc so that's less of an issue. With the Mercedes caliper the disc is also thicker (32 mm vs. 28 mm for the BMW E38) which gives better cooling. And I believe that if you have a huge caliper covering much of the disc you will have less cooling as well.
All in all there is quite a lot that influences how the brakes perform, but I hope these will work great as it is quite big upgrade over standard. At least the calipers were cheap (125 pounds
) and brake pads are also not that expensive. Other nice looking calipers are the 8 pots on an Audi RS4/RS6/R8, but I think they will be overkill on a light car as a Sierra.As for the RS3/RS4/R8/TTRS calipers my mate has a set on his sierra with 370mm discs BUT......... theses aint cheap and will not go under 17's!
24-05-2017, 06:20 PM
#104
The discs were 295, the bells 220 and the bolts 36. The brackets didn't come from Reyland so I don't know how much those would be. But mine is a 4x4, so at least the bells on a 2wd would need to be different. I don't know if the brackets would fit though. I think on a standard Sierra they would fit, but I'm not sure on 2wd cosworth hubs.
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doga-ot (24-05-2017)
24-05-2017, 07:29 PM
#105
The discs were 295, the bells 220 and the bolts 36. The brackets didn't come from Reyland so I don't know how much those would be. But mine is a 4x4, so at least the bells on a 2wd would need to be different. I don't know if the brackets would fit though. I think on a standard Sierra they would fit, but I'm not sure on 2wd cosworth hubs.
Cheers bud
24-05-2017, 07:39 PM
#106
I don't know code on the calipers, I would have to remove the calipers to check the back. I do know there is 330 written on the caliper lugs which refers to the disc size on the Mercedes. They also come in 345, but those simply have longer lugs. I think those longer lugs would touch the hubs, so better to use the 330 version.
If you mean the European Ford Event in Holland I will probably go if I can make it that day. Would be nice to meet you!
If you mean the European Ford Event in Holland I will probably go if I can make it that day. Would be nice to meet you!
24-05-2017, 07:46 PM
#107
I don't know code on the calipers, I would have to remove the calipers to check the back. I do know there is 330 written on the caliper lugs which refers to the disc size on the Mercedes. They also come in 345, but those simply have longer lugs. I think those longer lugs would touch the hubs, so better to use the 330 version.
If you mean the European Ford Event in Holland I will probably go if I can make it that day. Would be nice to meet you!
If you mean the European Ford Event in Holland I will probably go if I can make it that day. Would be nice to meet you!
24-05-2017, 08:45 PM
#111
20 70 45 03. 20 70 45 04.
6. 5.
he says they fit S500 but thats just his word
Last edited by doga-ot; 24-05-2017 at 08:47 PM.
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doga-ot (25-05-2017)
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doga-ot (25-05-2017)
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doga-ot (25-05-2017)
30-07-2017, 02:56 PM
#119
After a long search I finally found the front anti roll bar of an Escort Cosworth in the UK. Shipping to the Netherlands was a bit expensive, but in the end I want to get the handling as good as possible so I had to have it.
29 mm thick instead of the 28 mm of the Sapph Cosworth 4x4.
29 mm thick instead of the 28 mm of the Sapph Cosworth 4x4.
A