Anonymous

Does anyone run this and what pumps do you run @ what boost ratings etc..

I have Got 2 pumps...

ERL up to 10bar i believe

Flowjet 3.1bar

If i run 2.5 bar boost the erl with the same jet (0.7mm) runs @ 6bar where has the flowjet runs at 3.1 as thats the maximum pressure of the pump.

Is .6bar enough of a pressure drop to get water atomisation ?

Or is the pump simply no good for WI purposes ?

Not a comeback - more of a techincal post for someone else.

Cheers in advance

DaveEscos

aah, knew you'd come snivveling back when you needed to ask a question

Anonymous

Doesn't look like a topic people know about though Dave, not snivveling just laughing

ian sibbert

We had this debate sometime ago....with Mike R and Steve(itsmeagain)...conclusion was that the flojet would be ok for approx 2 bar of boost any more and the ERL should be used....i personally have 2 flojets on the car for ISS and WI running 2 bar and never had any probs....that said we are running a 34mm restrictor and approx 300 hp...i'll try and find the thread..

https://passionford.com/forum/viewto...asc&highlight=

Regards

Ian

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

whats ISS please Ian? intercooler spray?

ian sibbert

Intercooler Spray System

Anonymous

I have spoke to ERL

The Flowjet pump is not suitable for a Turbocharged car....

Reason.

ERL Jet needs a Minimum 3bar pressure Drop for the water to atomise correctly.

Therefore its impossible for the flowjet pump to work correctly.

Mike said his works - BUT he runs 2x 0.6mm jets to compensate the fact the pump is not atomising the water so he has to use more of it, but he doesn't use enough to damage the spark.

So he has 1bar of pressure at the jet - if you had 3 bar you could run 0.6mm, and get a cooler charge and a better burn due to less water used. Therefore the flowjet pump will cost you power over the erl one simply down to the amount of water used.

The homolgation pumps on a standard car will not work FULL STOP LOL as they can't run at less pressure than the boost the car is running.


So if your running 2.5bar on a 3.1bar pump the water needed @ .6 bar is greater than @ 3bar as its not atomised correctly due to the fact the jets aren't working as an optimum.

This will work using the flowjet BUT its not the correct pump for the ERL jets......That is from ERL....they said you need a MIN of 3bar LOL

ian sibbert

Not being a synic but ERL aint going to endorse Flo-Jet are they?

We have run at least 10 rally cars over the years with the flo-jet system...all with no ACT problems...i would agree the ERL is a better pump more fit for purpose than the flo-jet and especially for a higher boost engine....but the flo-jet system work adequately for our purpose...we historically run have run 2 0.7's in the inlet....ultimately though is I were doing the mod for a performance advantage i'd like to experiment with pre comp w.i.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Steve,
FYI the ONLY reason I am running two 0.6mm jets is because when I tried to get the 1mm jet out of my old RS500 intercooler it sheared off . I couldn't find anywhere that had a 1mm jet there and then, but luckily I was able to rob a 0.6mm jet off someone else. Harvey then said that for the bhp that I was running, I would still need a 1mm jet, so I spoke to Ahmed and asked if having another 0.6mm jet would be a good equivalent and he said that it would actually be better due to improved atomisation of the smaller jets, so I just added another 0.6mm item.

FYI I run 2.2 bar of boost peak, holding 1.8 and I do not have any issues. When I had my Sapphire, I ran 2.2 bar HELD on a 1.0mm jet and had NO issues. Each set up is/was able to hold the ACTs at 44°C on the road (although only 50°C on the rollers at AVA that time). So that is your "theories" out the window .

Anonymous

Never mentioned to ERL anything about pumps when i spoke to them, just asked how there jets worked and how boost affected this.

So dunno what they think of the flowjet pump.

Anonymous

Mike My theories are not theories they were questions.

ERL who know more about water injection than SCS AHMED and you - and actually make the jets say....

The water atomise's correctly @ a minimum of 3BAR...using the ERL jets

Therefore the flowjet pump can't atomise the water using ERL jets no idea why i can under stand this and you can't.

I really don't care what your car runs to be honest, and they fact if you ran the correct pump you could run a smaller jet says it all to me (that is theory though, but it came from ERL)

I know your car work's with your setup - but if you haven't tested it against a pump that works correctly with your boost and those jets used you really can't comment on the fact that ERL say you need a 3bar pressure drop.

Looks like i am getting into an argument again for asking questions.


Mike when you have done the tests and not asked ahmed scs to do them please send me the results.

I am going to use the correct pump for the jets, not the incorrect one.

Ahmed is right in the jet size though, the fact they don't work properly @ your boost appears to be irrevant

Stavros

I reckon theyd say...

ian sibbert

I think in reality you knew the answer to the question before you asked.....

I can only comment on my experience with W.I....and have never had a problem with the flo-jet pumps....we havn't got the resource to carry out indepth tests on the jets performance as i'm sure you havn't, we can only go off the information available and comment on the results we get with the data available....i reluctantly post on here as if you comment against the common concensus you are belittled....it doesn't give rise to a decent debate...just a slagging match....

IMO for what it's worth for your application the ERL pump is fit for purpose....

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Steve,
It works on the rally cars as well, but that still isn't proof enough for you? Then you're a fucking idiot .

The rally teams could run ANY pump they wanted and yet they ran the Flojet ones - mmmmm, go figure....

I also think it is incredible that you think ERL know EVERYTHING there is to know about water injection, when they advocate such a flawed strategy based purely on injecting water at a certain boost pressure . All the rally teams run a dual strategy of air charge temp AND boost pressure.

Injecting water into the engine LOSES you power, so you want to do it as infrequently as possible, so injecting water into an engine at a set pressure is just so wrong, it isn't even funny . Not only will it consume vast quantities of water, it will create misfires, as it doesn't NEED water injecting, unless the air charge temps exceed a set point, which in tests carried out by the Ford works team (which Ahmed was part of), has proven to be 42 deg C. Injecting it any later and the water isn't able to hold the ACTs at around this level and the ACTs continue to climb, and injecting it earlier means that there is not enough heat in the air temps to vapourise the water nicely (and it is the latent heat properties of the water in this heat exchange process that cools the ACTs), and then instead of vapour, you get water droplets in the combustion process and as everyone knows, water and fire don't mix, hence the misfires .

Every single team that uses water injection, does so on this two stage strategy (except ERL ), so given that, I am surprised that you have 100% faith in their knowledge. Also, FYI, the reason why all the teams used ERLs jets, but the Flojet pumps, was because in competition use, the ERL pumps were not reliable enough. However, I am lead to believe that Richard's (Mr ERL) new pump has improvements made that were supposed to prevent these failures (but this was only done recently ).

So to sum up, could you please explain why, if the Flojet pump doesn't work (the Grp A rally cars run up to 3 bar of boost in the mid-range ) with the ERL jets, did all the teams switch to these instead of using the ERL item, obviously they know a little more than Richard does wouldn't you say?

Matt

mike you actually sound like you know what youre talking about for a minute there, surely not from the same person who was unable to put his hands inside his own engine bay withour repeatedly scalding himself in germany

where those details i asked you for

Tim

iTrader: (1)

I have a flo jet pump i use it every mornin to remove my piss

Stavros

What you on about mike?

ERL do exactly what you say, the only kit that is purely boost referenced is their base model cheap kit. All the others are fully mappable

I think this is on the basis of "its better than nothing" and it is...

DaveEscos

isnt the ERL pump somewhat unreliable?

prone to overheating and faliure?

thats why im not too keen to by one?

unless they've sorted themselves out?

ian, spondoolies on the way pal

Cam

Avoid the early anodised red bodied ERL pumps they are shonky but the later silver ones are spot c*nty on!

Anonymous

Really cause i sit down and work things out rather than having no ability of my own and contacting the 2 people you always do


I never said that, i said they know more than you ahmed and scs. I also said they make the nozzle which is rated to work at 3bar.
Let me give you another example.

A fuel injector needs 3 bar to work correctly, but will work to a degree at 1bar because a tuner has stated this, yet the manufactorer of the injector says it needs to be 3bar minium pressure to get the correct flow/atomisation characteristics of the fuel.

Now tell me honestly which do you listen to ? The person that thinks they know or the people that spec and make the device ?

Thanks for stating the obvious, I never said anything about this or disagreed with that in any way but good job you mentioned it.

Every single team uses a pump that is under rated for the application ? Once again i have never questioned or mentioned the reliabilty of either pump, totally irrevant to the question.

Mike, this has to be you best line ever.

3bar pump / 3 bar of pressure i would love to see the maths that allows you to pump 2 things of the same pressure there has to be a pressure drop for a pump to be a pump if there is no pressure its not used as a pump more of a tap....

Having low pressure means the water is in larger form therefore the air not as dense, you then need more of it to have the same effects. If the water is atomised from what i have read you need to have about twice the pressure drop between the pump and the airflow you are pumping into (which is why the 3bar pump is totally useless on a car running 3bar of boost - i would love to see you prove me wrong on this with maths not ahmed's quote and rally teams use it so it must work). Using this ERL specify the jet has to be a 3bar drop in pressure for the jet to actually atomise the water correctly, again i never menioned pumps to ERL simply how the jets worked.

So as you sell the pump, can you explain in real terms (not he said this n that) how a 3.1 bar pump can have a surficant pressure drop at the nozzle for the water to atomise correctly.

All of the above is basic maths and physics and has nothing to do with any system component really.


Facts are for your calulations

ERL jet needs to have a 3bar pressure drop.
Pump Runs @ 3.1bar maximum
Car runs @ (say) 2.2 (as per your car)

Anonymous

Mike, to be honest i would like you to prove this as i would sooner use the flowjet over the ERL but need to know its correct.....which i can't see at the moment

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Steve,
The only point I'm trying to make is, according to you, the Flojet pump won't work with the ERL jets. They clearly DO, as the rally teams have proven.

So could you please explain why, if what you are saying is true, did all the Rally teams CHOSE to use the Flojet pump? This is the ONLY reason I run it, as it is specced and chosen by teams that have done extensive testing.

The testing I have done Steve is purely on a temperature basis. With the WI disabled, my ACTS climb to 48-55°C (ambient temps dependent), with it running as it should, they remain stable at 44°C. Given that this is what the WI was designed to achieve, I am more than happy with the set up. I fully acknowledge that a high pressure set up would give better atomisation, but given that the Flojet set up does exactly what I want it to do with 100% reliability, I see no reason to change it.

SteveN,
Even the mappable system does not use ACTs as one of it's paramters, it uses revs instead and can be mapped like fuel injectors....

Anonymous

Cheers for the techincal response mike.

Just because someone uses it doesn't mean its right, there has always been issues with the ERL pump packing up - maybe this is the why they use the flowjet.

I can't understand why this is hard to comprehend as in the drop in pressure issue.

I will email flowjet and ask them, maybe they can explain.

RichardPON

Then surely you need to be more objective!

ERL are hardly gonna turn round and say "yes, our pumps are unreliable pieces of shit - please take your business elsewhere"

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Steve,
You are 100% right as to the reason they chose the Flojet pump (as I have already mentioned) . They obviously needed a pump that would work continuously in all conditions and one that wasn't temperamental or fragile, hence why they chose the Flojet item. The one in my car has been in there for four years and han't missed a beat. Obviously they wouldn't chose something that wasn't fit for purpose - why would they ? I can't get my head around the fact that you can't see this? I understand that it may be a compromise and not a PERFECT answer to the problem, but at the time it was a superior set up to the ERL pump, as it was reliable and consistant, so it was more important to have a pump that was 80% efficient, but 100% reliable, than it was to have a pump that was 100% efficient and 50% reliable.

Anonymous

Never mentioned pumps to ERL rich

Anonymous

Mike i understand that.

But 80% efficient is irrevant on your example..

You can't pump 3bar of pressure into something that is running @ 3bar - this is what i don't understand and would like explaining.

So what you are saying is the ERL pump is correct for the job but unreliable so you use a pump that doesn't work that is ?

Karl

As Steve has mentioned running a boost pressure close to the operating pressure of your WI water pressure will result in NO water flow from the jets!

In a rally car with a turbo restrictor, since the boost tails to single figures at high rpm this is not such an issue with a low pressure pump such as the flowjet.

However for any application where the held boost will 2 bar+ I would not advise the flow jet pump simply because the resultant water flow at a working pressure of 1 bar is not enough to atomise the water, resulting in a higher misfire potential.

In this instance I advise the latest ERL pump (silver item) and the use of a suitable control system that allows both boost and ACT to be the activation parameters.

Remember just like the rising rate fuel system used on a turbo car, the same principle applies to water injection. The pressure of the water must remain either a fixed amount above boost pressure to create a suitable pressure differential, or be sufficiently high (e.g. 6 bar+) to maintain a large enough pressure differencial even at high levels of held boost. (Flow can only ever occur from an arear of high to low pressure and the rate at which it does so is determined by the pressure differential)

Steven_RW

Is anyone 100% sure that the flowjet pump only runs at the stated 3 bar?

Otherwise, like dingy says I struggle to see how it would even manage to get the water thru the jet if the pressure pushing the water into the jet was 3 bar from the pump and the boost pressure at the outlet side of the jet was 3 bar... the water wouldnt flow would it?

I reckon that maybe the flowjet pump runs more than it states otherwise cannot see how it would manage to get the water to come out the jet?

CHeers

PS...get a decent fvcking intercooler and stop shoving water in your engines

RW

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Steve,
If you're going to be running 3 bar of boost , then I would agree that the Flojet one won't work. It certainly does the job with up to 2.2 bar of boost (with NO misfires ), which as you will see, is all I have been saying.

Anonymous

Mike - you fail to answer my question LOL......as per LOL...

says on the pump 3.1bar max LOL

3.1-2.6 bar is .5bar = WILL IT WORK

there is a 2.5bar difference in advised drop LOL


RW - got the best intercooler i can fit, but simply aint good enough for hard thrash LOL....but i am thinking like you 3bar on a rally car and a 3 bar pump simply wont pump any fluid LOL

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Which is almost word for word EXACTLY what i told you on E-Mail yesterday Steve. It cant work as intended in real world conditions IMO, regardless of who uses it.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Steve,
How have I failed to answer your question ? The Flojet pump keeps ACTs at 44°C on the road with 2.2 bar held. Ipso-facto it works at this level. I have never run more boost than this, so I can't tell you if it works at any higher pressures (but logic would dictate that it won't). However, as I NEVER intend on pushing any turbo of mine beyond 2.2 bar, I would say that up to this pressure the Flojet is fit for purpose and has been regularly proven to be so.

ian sibbert

Have you also considered the temp of the water in the tank? we are going to run a system on the new car with flo jets which runs the pumps continuously but on a cooler and recirc, the system will operate solonoid valves to allow water to the spray bar upon demand.....cant comment on the track cars but esc and focus suffer with increased cabin temps and consequently the water is being warmed in the tank..

Cam

A 6 degree drop in ACTs doesn't seem that impressive to be honest. In my very limited experience of WI I saw a 12 to 20 degree drop when using an ACT triggered ERL based WI setup. It may have been that my intercooler was not efficient enough (Pace early style RS500 type).
Car was running T35/greys/28psi held btw.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Cam,
This was with a genuine RS500 intercooler. When I had my Pace one, without the WI it would climb to 60°C . And that was just with a T34 as well with 26psi held .

Obviously the best bet is to fit an intercooler that makes the WI redunant except in the most extreme scenarios, as WI is poo, it's just the lesser of two evils.

Cam

I'll shut up

Franco

iTrader: (2)

Good discussion this....................


But on a lighter note..................




What the fugg are you lot talking about

Sorry

Steven_RW

Steve,

Suppose there is only so much room at the front end of a mk2 escort!. Next stage might be to stick a MASSIVE intercooler on the front of the car ala roger sports

Interesting reading all this.

Karl/Stu

Could you not have your boost turned down so that it sustained the optimum air temp. IE never higher than 50 degrees or something. Boost ranging between 1.8 bar and 2.2 depend on how cool the air is? Timing advancing up to match the lower boost and do without water injection?

Cheers

RW

Anonymous

Agree with ERL on this we tried the Flowjet on mine & under Highboost/Sustained Throttle it started to lose control of Charge air. The ERL had no such probs.