stevecfrst1

Im considering changing spec ok my 2wd sapphire, its currently on a t34.48 with light blues, all the usual bits at this spec plus its a fresh long studded 200 block engine.
In all honesty its fine as it is but you always look for a bit more don’t you?
So what I wanted to ask of those who have gone further was did you think it was worth it and were you pleased with how it ended up.
My thoughts on options would be- get a higher spec t34 built , remap and bigger injectors or go for 500-550 with head/cams/inlet/different turbo/ect ect, which will obviously get much more involved and costly to do that though. Thanks

cossynut2

I have had my 2wd Saff for 23 years, never been standard. Started off with stage 3 around 390bhp and its now up to 450bhp. The trouble is you do get used to it and I am now looking to go a bit further. Never regretted upping the power, gearbox, suspension, brakes, exhaust, wheels/tyres etc. It is not cheap but if you can afford it the smile it puts on your face is worth it!!!

cossie51

I'm interested in this as mine is sitting at about 400bhp and I keep thinking I want more power but only thing stopping me is engine runs spot on as it is plus It wasn't long studded when built as it was never going past the power level it has now and I'm worried it will go from a fun quick car to a wheel spinning animal that's slower due to not being able to put more power on the ground.

ajamesc

Must be something wrong with your set up mine was fine in the dry with 500.

cossie51

Nothing wrong with my setup !
If you read it I said I'm worried it would become hard to put power down if I push the power level up.
Not having 500 + bhp I don't know what it would be like hence my question!

ajamesc

It doesn’t become hard good diff good tyres good suspension. Fit a beam as well

cossie51

I take it I will need to have the block long studded before I push any more power out of my engine and not just fit a bigger more modern turbo.

cossynut2

You will need deep pockets, the further you go the more you need to upgrade.If money is no object and you know what you want performance wise book it into a Cosworth Specialist and they will give you exactly what you want.

costina

iTrader: (1)

Bit of advice if it's a not a daily just a fun car 400 bhp will be fine reliable and you can use all of that power....

No point in having 600+bhp if your not going to use it!!!
There are plenty of Willy (small) wavers in the cosworth scene who's cars will never see a strip or track or get used in anger Or a top speed attempt.

470 bhp can be had with limited engine mods and a modern turbo ecu etc.

Remember it's old tech and there are more modern capable cars out their for Less cash.

Your choice.

stevieturbo

Just put a modern turbocharger onto it and any supporting work for that. Get away from that old Garrett crap and you'll have more power/torque everywhere.

and it's a simple bolt on for the most part

ajamesc

Nothing wrong what so ever with big power. Pick your tuner pick the route your going to take and do it. Your only here once mate Fook what others think

stevieturbo

"Big power" is less important than a good spread of power.

A shitty laggy old Garrett is sort of the worst of all worlds lol

No doubt you could opt for cams and other stuff as well, but that depends what you currently have etc.

But a turbo is almost a bolt on job, it's easy, it requires minimal effort and will make a good difference everywhere. Don't underestimate what something that spools fast can do to the difference of simply driving the car even without raking the shit out of it. And as a bonus, they'll perform better up top too.

ajamesc

Very true that’s why I’ve taken the Borg route but others don’t want to spend that money which is fair enough. But your right. Modern turbo and ecu set up is more efficient power and more torque if spec’ed by someone who knows what there doing.

stevieturbo

BW, Precision or maybe some of those new Garrett's are all similar enough prices that it's largely irrelevant.

And even with an old crappy ecu tuned properly, a modern turbo will still be worth doing and again is the cheapest good value option to move forward.

Doing anything with shitty old T-series turbos really just seems pointless.

stevecfrst1

stevieturbo

Given the wide range of turbos out there, housings etc....it's just plain nonsense to claim a good turbo will only spool 400rpm sooner than an ancient GT3071.
Which GT30, which turbine housing, what supporting mods etc etc etc ?

It's as wide open as saying one cossie will be faster than another....yet there are still many many variables behind that.

And there are people around the world who have done 500+ on a standard engine. Is it the right way ? Are there better ways ? of course....but it can be done. But a headline number isnt what you should be seeking for a fast regularly driven road car.

As said, fitting a good modern turbo that might only get you in the 4-500hp range but something that spools fast, will be night and day difference than a laggy piece of crap. If you get a setup that's making strong boost/torque by 3k and still performing right to redline.....you'll really be impressed

Get a modern turbo on it and it will be vastly different ( once tuned ) without even touching anything else.

Mark Shead

I would say change tuner lol. 507hp was definitely real but I would have gone for the 477hp on the 7064 I did as it spools about 500rpm better than the 7670.
The 7064 over a gtx3071 was 900rpm better and 335ftlb better at 3800rpm.

Mark

costina

iTrader: (1)

It's about driveablity and what you want from your car.
Everyone has their valid points and tbh Stevie is correct on most of them and he's not biased.

Big thing to remember it's a old car and all other components will require a upgrade to support your power hike.

Imo having big power and a straight cut box to handle it etc etc is not my thing as the noise alone would drive me nuts.

Good luck

Mark Shead

What makes you think you need a straight cut box a tremec tko is the best upgrade you can do to a big power car.

Mark

stevieturbo

I'm not a Cossie fan in general.

But a few years back a friend bought a Rousesport sapphire thing. GT25 car...so none of these silly T3's or larger.

And by todays standards, even that GT25 would be pretty crap. But it made good boost/torque from around 2000rpm and it really was very pleasant to drive, and made just as much power as any standard Cossie that would have been laggy as fuck.

Dont underestimate what fast spool/low end torque can do to driving enjoyment especially if you use the car often.

In effect drive a modern 2-300hp car vs something from 20+ years ago...or 30+

The difference is like night and day, and often that same modern car turbo will still do 400hp or near, and they're usually tiny !

2Litre

I have a GT2860rs on mine, change the compressor wheel to an after-market GTX2860 units has a -48 housing on it's on boost by 2600rpm and by 3000-3100 it's 24psi.
A very drivable car tyre shredding low-end fun, instant torque. Not the most bhp , 334bhp 332 pound foot but a lot of fun and driving pleasure.


Cheers.

Tim.

stevieturbo

Some of those new Gen2X Garretts could be a good option.

I like Precision, others like BW, but they all make great units

T34 would be like a dinosaur in comparison.

costina

iTrader: (1)

Most big power cossies esp 4x4 versions have straight cut boxes and sound nasty imo.

Again going back to Rods car yes it was a very drivable car but not everyone car afford to go that route and probably better off buying a newer car with a better starting point.
Just my opinion Mark 👍

Adam-M

I think your missing the point some people might be chosen the older car for the whack in the seat you get when it does come in, if your racing fair play faster spooling may be better but to say something is shit because it spools 500-1000k rpm slower is stupid

I’d be more worried about a 500hp car that handles like jelly

turbotrev

That’s not all quite true, you can’t have a massively better spooling turbo that is also better on the top end with the same powerband, the trade off is one for another, whichever turbo you are using

Cheers Paul

turbotrev

Totally agree with this first sentence too, it depends on loads of factors, budget, what you want from the car, how often you gonna use it, how do you want it to drive, etc etc

The more modern management systems and turbos are generally better though

Cheers Paul

stevieturbo

Lag is shit !


It really is true. Turbos have come a huge way in recent years. So if comparing to something that's old and crap...the modern unit will just destroy the old one everywhere. They really are and can be that much more efficient.

A good example is a car I did recently, 2.5 Subaru. I've done a lot of these over the years, various specs, engine sizes etc etc...and TBH very few impress me ( high expectations ? )
Some were ok, some did make decent power, but even with very good drop in replacements, billet wheels etc etc....they either were not very good up top, or not very good down low. Almost none ever got it just right. None were terrible, they were all very fast...but there was always room for improvement.
It almost always took a full rotated setup to start to feel good.

Then at the start of this year did another, and again a new latest/greatest turbo, Garrett based, billet, all the usual. Still a small turbo compared to many though. And in a heavy 2007 car....which makes things harder to impress, but this really was impressive. Full boost, around 1.8 bar by 3200rpm and pulled just as strong right until the 8k redline. At a guess it would be in the 5-600hp range, certainly 500+ with ease. ( I don't do dynos...fast car always wins over something with a silly pub dyno printout )

And I do not impress easily !! Most other cars of a similar nature, with different turbos would only be seeing that spool at maybe 4k, some even later and even some of those might have struggled a little up top too.
This one really was sweet everywhere and made for a super fast, smooth road car.

Even just a good turbocharger really can transform a car...with supporting mods it can get even better.

Mark Shead

costina

iTrader: (1)

Like I said it was a general opinion.....

What is it with people can't we just have a grown up chat about cars ?

Stevie, there is not a lot of point mate even posting.

ajamesc

It is a grown up chat lol a debate. Problem is with a topic like this there’s too many opinions and views. Some from enthusiasts some from very knowledgable people a few from the best in the business lol. Some from hear say. There is no meet in the middle most the time. People iver follow one route or the other. Be that because of budget what you have personally experienced or what your tuner or mate in the pub has told you lol

costina

iTrader: (1)

Steve, pick a tuner of your choice and go with their recommendation, set a budget if you can or it will get out of control.

Mark Shead

It is a grown up chat but you where miss directing him about gearbox’s I corrected you.

Mark

costina

iTrader: (1)

And again I was just stating a general opinion about high powered cosworth powered cars.

I know why not try to sell him a 600bhp engine on fancy management and a big borg turbo and to add a tremec box with a funky rear beam.
least that way you will be happy and he will be skint..

And to think I was giving you a little praise for getting good power from a std engine. And stating that Rod's car was a very drivable cossie......

Bitch

turbotrev

I still slightly disagree.

A car that makes full boost at 3200 will still not be making power at 8k, it will be dying on its ass by then and I bet the backpressure would be through the roof esp if needing big boost to do it.

It might feel like it drives ok but that’s it.
No point in revving it that hard it’s its on full boost my 3200. You may as well change gear at 6.5/7k.

On the smaller turbos the more modern stuff is def better but the trade of for quick spool is still robbing power from the top end.

Once over 600 ish hp you won’t get quick spool (on cossies im talking)

Cheers Paul

Caddyshack

Quick spool and 600bhp can go hand in hand on a well specced cossie. Harvey Gibbs and Mark Shead have both said recenlty that 7670 will spool fast and only 500 rpm up on 7064 and should do 630bhp and hold past 7500.

Mark Shead

Making a 600hp YB Rev past and still make power after 8k means the cam type and timing would mean you would loose more than you gain and the natural peak power is around 7 to 7:5k and on a 7670 the back pressure is fine.
My preference for power band and 520hp is ideally suited to the YB.

Mark

Caddyshack

In that instance is there any point in revving past 7000-7500, surely you snick a bigger gear and keep accelerating?

My mate had an Sl55 AMG with about 500bhp and a Ferrari 360 with a little more, he said that the AMG always walked away from the 360 as the 360 needed nearly 9000 rpm to make the power and was well down on torque, the AMG made more torque overall and power lower down and just pulled a bigger gear earlier so drove away.

stevieturbo

But he doesnt want a 600+ car ?

He hasnt even really indicated about 500+ ?

The bottom line is still the same.

If on a budget, the best thing he can do now for a quick/easy and effective upgrade is dump the old T34 an fit a modern turbocharger. There will be no trade offs anywhere and he will very easily be able to see improvements everywhere. The old T3's etc are just crap by modern standards.

As for no point in changing gear or revving to 6500, 7000 etc If the engine is still happily making power, then you certainly can, and further.

But as said before, for a good and very fast road car you can use every day, that low boost/torque will make for a much faster car than some laggy thing you need to rev the crap out of it.

I've had shit setups before myself, or cams that simply push powerbands upwards, and killing everything low down...and ultimately are slower all round because of it. But yea as Adam mentioned they might go from nothing to a shove in the seat all of a sudden if that's what he's into.
That doesnt make it fast. If anything it just makes it slower and less predictable all round even if a headline power figure might be the same or slightly higher.

But it's entirely up to everyone what route they choose. But when the turbo is such a critical part, and an area where huge improvements in efficiency have been made in recent years....you cannot overlook that as a first thing to change.

ajamesc

My sisters car has a modern turbo set up and a modern twin plate paddle shift gearbox. She has a 2017 Golf R. It is a quick car no doubt about it it just go’s. You don’t really feel boost it’s just a continuous pull. The gearbox is just bang bang up through the gears even in full auto it’s a fast normal road car. By no means a wow that’s a fast car type of ride though. In fact to be honest after a week I’d be bored of it if it was mine

cossynut2

The guy that started this thread "stevecfrst1" must be confused by now with all the conflicting opinions on what is the best way to achieve his upgrade. What suits one person may not suit another and as I have said to him decide what HE wants, set a budget and choose one of the many Cosworth specialists to sort it out.