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General Car Related Discussion.To discuss anything that is related to cars and automotive technology that doesnt naturally fit into another forum catagory.
Same old.
People think hp makes you fast. Will spend 20k for 5/600hp but wont buy decent dampers.
A good 350hp Cossie with great suspension will piss all over something with 500hp and these generic crap coil overs that are around today.
Exactly what i said lol anything off the shelf will be crap if you want suspension to work have it built correctly
There is not much wrong with the AB springs. They are just a linear spring just like what everyone is using on coilovers. You could only say they would be too stiff or soft. But personally I think the springs are fine. It’s just the shocks that could be better.
If that is your car in the pic id say theres a lot wrong with it the spring rates and the dampers are terrible . Co ordsport do bilstein
Cheers James. We are ready when you are.
Marc have you tried intrax for your suspension? They are over on your side of the channel. There's a guy there called Bart, he does his own stuff from memory.
As for price on Leda units, it's all dependant on spec.
I have indeed read about Intrax, but they were not all good stories. A lot about them needing rebuilds after a year or so. And it's not like the Intrax stuff is cheap either. So no Intrax for me.
Originally Posted by Jay
If that is your car in the pic id say theres a lot wrong with it the spring rates and the dampers are terrible . Co ordsport do bilstein
Yes that is my car in the pic. The pic is from more than one year ago. It's not only the springs and dampers that make it roll that way. Since then I have changed the 20 mm rear arb for a 21 mm with rose joints. The front arb is changed from 28 mm to 29 mm and was using standard bushes, which are now upgraded to Powerflex. And I now have front TCAs that give me a higher front roll centre. So all these things should already help reducing the roll, but I haven't tried it yet with the new setup.
Dampers don't really do anything for the steady state roll angle in corners, it's only slowing down the movement of the roll when turning into the corner. The springs do influence the roll, but I was not really planning on using much stiffer springs.
If you read it correct I put I think they are £950 a set , and that was 1 year ago and there has been limited numbers of anything cosworth group a , n , or wrc and if they do become available then the price has at least doubled.
It is old technology but it's clearly very good , prodrive used a 50mm insert on there bilstein like some cosworth group a cars and they are rated as one of the cheapest and best suspensions made for a scooby.
Cheers paul
Sorry for mis-reading your post. If I understand you correctly the original Ford Group A and N Bilstein used 41 mm inserts, but that is really quite a rare size. The 40 mm seems to be more generic and available. I've seen companies selling the 40 mm inserts and strut tubes, whereas the 41 mm seems very hard to come by.
Making your own 40 mm Bilstein coilover set seems indeed a nice option. For the fronts it seems like quite straightforward, weld a bracket on the strut tube to fit the knuckle and on the top I suppose it can easily be fitted as well, depending on what thread the inserts have at the top.
But how about the rear? You would need an eye at the top and bottom of the coilover. At the bottom it seems like the thread from the insert is just long enough to fit it through the strut tube and putting a nut on the end. So how would you fit the bottom eye to it? For the top it seems like there are some eyes that can be put onto the thread together with the top spring hat.
Marc and Paul. The guys at Leda make there own bodies. They have multiple top and bottoms that they weld onto the bodies. Maybe a call or email to them might yield what you are looking for? I built many Sierra dampers during my time, they certainly have weld on bases with eyes that hold a spherical bearing. They also have tops that thread onto the top of the rod that hold a spherical bearing and hold the spring top cup in place.
Bilstein inserts are most often mount upside down that’s why people think they have a 40\41mm rod. As we know this is not the case. I have seen inserts in bodies mounted the conventional way with the 14,20 or 22mm rod sticking out of the top of the body. The insert is held in place with a top closure which screws into the body, as per most serviceable dampers.
I know they are mounted upside down and the rod is not visible. The rod is screwed into the hole in the picture, which is at the bottom of the coilover.
But how do you attach a mounting eye to the bottom? If you weld it on to the bottom you cannot access the nut anymore that holds the insert.
It is the piston rod that screws into the bottom of the body in your picture. I have seen inserts fitted in the bodies the other way around. This way the insert body is fixed and the piston rod moves as most other dampers do. The insert is held in the damper body which screws down into the body holding the insert in place.
But in that case you still need to fit the mounting eye to the piston rod. Or can that easily be done by screwing an eye together with a hat on the end of the piston rod?
I assume that the damper is still mounted in an upside down manner in such a case?
It’s just another way I’ve seen inserts mounted. The thread is still screwed in to the bottom of the damper body but a further lock ring is added on the top of the body. Like in the picture. No the damper insert is no longer upside down.
Personally I would thread the bottom of the outer face of the case and then have a machined bearing carrier made with an internal thread with mounting lug with would then mate upto a welded on mounting lug on the case so it lines up perfect every time.
Jon do you still work for Leda and can they make 41mm bilstein cases?
At leda there are many different mounts that could be modified to suit I believe.
Paul I’m in and out of there as the work dictates. We have a very capable machine shop that can turn anything out.
I don’t want to start breaking forum rules
The rear ones on eBay are labelled 350/130. What does that mean and are those suitable for road use?
I still don't have coilovers for my car and still haven't made a decision what to get either.
I did find out what the valving numbers for the Bilstein dampers mean:
Understanding Bilstein Valve Ratings
Damping forces of Bilstein valvings for Off-Road are measured in Newtons at a velocity of 0.52 meters/seconds (approximately 20 inches/second). The ratings shown correspond to those measurements; rebound force is the first number, followed by compression force (rebound / compression). Conventionally, the ratings are written as one tenth the damping force in Newtons.
EXAMPLE: Valve rating: 275 / 78
Rebound force is 2750 Newtons at 0.52 m/s
Compression force is 780 Newtons at 0.52 m/s
I still don't have a clue though what ratings would be suitable for a roadgoing Cosworth with ~350 lb/in front and 175 lb/in rear springs... Does anyone have experience with this?
I still don't have coilovers for my car and still haven't made a decision what to get either.
I did find out what the valving numbers for the Bilstein dampers mean:
I still don't have a clue though what ratings would be suitable for a roadgoing Cosworth with ~350 lb/in front and 175 lb/in rear springs... Does anyone have experience with this?
A road car with 350lb front springs is your first problem. I only run 345 on the front of my 4wd WRC Escort. Your rears should be ok.
The damping rates in the 300s are quite soft. Too many people spec far to high then hate the car and blame the dampers. Those you have found will be close. The problem with the old bilsteins is finding the options to replace them with. 41mm od dampers are like rocking horse poo.
You can send them to Bilstein for revalving though.
I would be happy to fit them on a road car just drop them springs down to 300s
With roadgoing I meant all interior present, but not only driven on the road but on track as well.
The valve ratings (275/78) I posted were just random numbers. But apparently those are very close for 300 lb springs?
I was thinking of using 40 mm inserts for mk1/2 Escorts as those are very easy to get. They are available in 260/60, 300/70 and 300/100. I also found 270/120 for the Vauxhall Corsa/Nova. I guess there might be more direct available.
With roadgoing I meant all interior present, but not only driven on the road but on track as well.
The valve ratings (275/78) I posted were just random numbers. But apparently those are very close for 300 lb springs?
I was thinking of using 40 mm inserts for mk1/2 Escorts as those are very easy to get. They are available in 260/60, 300/70 and 300/100. I also found 270/120 for the Vauxhall Corsa/Nova. I guess there might be more direct available.
Ahh ok so different to road use. You need then to be a bit higher.360/140 ish.
the car weight and roll bars matter to your damper setup.
But yes, 40mm are in plenty supply. The mk2 escort stuff is plentyfull.
The car weight should be close to standard, which should be 1310 kg empty. I have a 29 mm front and 21 mm rear arb. Should the 360/140 inserts be used with the 300 lb springs or should the springs also be stiffer in that case? I was more thinking of 325 or 350 lb front springs.
The car weight should be close to standard, which should be 1310 kg empty. I have a 29 mm front and 21 mm rear arb. Should the 360/140 inserts be used with the 300 lb springs or should the springs also be stiffer in that case? I was more thinking of 325 or 350 lb front springs.
should always use the lightest and longest springs possible.
I'd be using the 350 on smooth tar, 300s on the road.
I have seen those. But converting standard shocks to coilovers seems less easy than building your own front struts using 40 mm inserts. Rally Design sell kits for building your own struts: https://www.rallydesign.co.uk/produc...ducts_id=23060 You only need to make the bottom fit the steering knuckle. This way you can choose the valving of the insert you want to use. Otherwise you have to send the complete (new) shock to Bilstein to have it re-valved.
According to the MC2racing website the valving of the Bilsteins for the Merkur is 270/80: http://www.mc2racing.com/products/xr...ies/index.html This seems a bit soft, but I'm not sure if the shocks for the Cosworth have the same valving. But even if they are stiffer they are probably still too soft.
Guys after reading through this was there any more feedback on a good spring rate for Escort Cosworth that is only used on the road?
Currently have Konis with lowering springs and find it quite crashy on our poor roads which I hate.
Have read previously 350 front 180 rear on coilovers but thinking this may still be too firm for the bump compliant ride I want?
Was thinking 300 front and 150 rear for pure road use? (Gaz golds)
Last edited by dan le moignan; 07-12-2020 at 09:28 AM.
Will check but they are the later versions, believe early ones were really harshly damped.
He said they can alter the damping but biggest gain will be in the springs so was hoping at 300/180 it would still be in the scope of stock damping for the coilovers.
ideally looking for a good starting point then worst case will get damping altered if required.
A road car with 350lb front springs is your first problem. I only run 345 on the front of my 4wd WRC Escort. Your rears should be ok.
The damping rates in the 300s are quite soft. Too many people spec far to high then hate the car and blame the dampers. Those you have found will be close. The problem with the old bilsteins is finding the options to replace them with. 41mm od dampers are like rocking horse poo.
You can send them to Bilstein for revalving though.
I would be happy to fit them on a road car just drop them springs down to 300s
ive got x4 brand new bilstein 41mm cosworth tarmac spec inserts in there boxes lol ,i purchased them years ago whe dewitts had a pair for sale at £180 so i got x2 sets. I will have a look at the damping rates and ive also got a set off a group a escort cosworth again tarmac that was his spares.
ive got x4 brand new bilstein 41mm cosworth tarmac spec inserts in there boxes lol ,i purchased them years ago whe dewitts had a pair for sale at £180 so i got x2 sets. I will have a look at the damping rates and ive also got a set off a group a escort cosworth again tarmac that was his spares.
World championship level.
Don't think I could gain with them though.
well yes thats there top spec struts but they do a version thats used on the mk1 2 escorts which he didnt recommend lol which would be ideal and yhey was around 5k plus vat. I think iam going to use proflex i think which are around £1800 a strut but theres a company in beligum that do them pre built to original group a spec for around €1450 euros.
Last edited by zetaboostboy522bhp; 19-12-2020 at 05:19 PM.
well yes thats there top spec struts but they do a version thats used on the mk1 2 escorts which he didnt recommend lol which would be ideal and yhey was around 5k plus vat. I think iam going to use proflex i think which are around £1800 a strut but theres a company in beligum that do them pre built to original group a spec for around €1250 euros.
The uk importer for Proflex is not far from me in Skipton.
They also go up to the £5k a corner plus vat too.
i thought proflex was in lincoln ? Is that who you are on about or is it another supplier. Rallyworld can also supply them and rebuild but not spoke to him yet.
09-07-2018, 08:03 AM
