Caddyshack

Just to add, it is a common misconception that track cars spend a lot of time at high revs, they do not. A top speed car like Rods needs to be able to spend a lot of time at wide open throttles and sustained high revs. Track cars just go up and down the revs, they spend very little time at sustained revs. Track day cars very rarely exceed 150 mph and are generally hitting that before hard breaking, you very rarely hit top end on your car.

I totally agree that a good race engine needs the ability to rev but it isn't the be all and end all. The less revs the longer your engine will last, season after season of track days and power is actually not the important factor on a track car, suspension, weight, ability and tyres will make a bigger difference.

Adam-M

Most track cars I see spend most of their time at high rpm unless braking

cossynut2

First show for me is Simply Ford at Beaulieu in May, been going to it for a long time.
PM me your mobile number and I can bring it over some time.

cossynut2

Are you going to Simply Ford at Beaulieu in May?

Caddyshack

The point is that they are accelerating, not holding high revs, they Rev up and down....it is not wide open throttle at sustained revs...it is up the rev counter and back down, not sitting at 6000 rpm for more than a few seconds.

Watch any telemetry it is not sustained revs. Track and race cars spend very little time at the same revs.

Caddyshack

Try to think of any time you would spend more than 3 seconds at a static revs on track...most likely is a car that runs out of revs on a straight...or runs out of torque to accelerate any further on that straight....3 seconds at 150mph is 210meters, it would take a very long straight to accelerate up to that speed with 450bhp and then to have enough room to travel 210m at that sustained speed.

I think Snetterton has one of the longer straights in the UK, about 900m, so you would need to be up to top speed in my example, hold 200m and still have enough time to brake for the corner and even the best track day cars will need To be down to about 100 mph for the corner. Most Cossies are quite over geared and cannot pull top revs in 5th without a LOT of room, if you are at top revs in 4th then you have 5th as an option.

Rod-Tarry

EFR is the best lad that's why its pushed. I can fit any Turbo I want & at this point in time its an EFR. Mark had two EVO's at his place last week. They made 573 & 574 bhp. On the Test track the EFR car was 30mph faster at a given point purely on spool. We push it because lads like you don't & never will have a clue if you don't listen & learn whats best. It has nothing to do with budget if you cant afford it then you take second best as with all things in life. However go out on a back to back & you will start saving like crazy.

Adam-M

I think the gearing on cossies is perfect for a medium RPM turbo engine, go in an Impreza and you spend more time changing gear than anything else. In 3rd you pull out to overtake and you have to change up a gear before your even Infront of the car. Alright if you have a sequential box though.

My mate had an sti ra with 4.444 final drive which in my opinion was far too short for our roads and most tracks I've seen.

Fullflush

Rod getting his daily cunt mode enabled

turbotrev

On this thread I have not mentioned budget at all.
If I wanted one I can afford it, trust me.
Some can't so will settle for second best, nothing wrong with that either.
It's like anything in life, you dont always need the best most expensive things.
I'm not denying they are good either, they clearly are.
And I listen and learn more than most as well, but you don't know me so you wouldn't recognise that.
Im also not a sheep and do what I feel is best for me instead of joining a fanboy club.

This is a thread about an engine build, not a turbo.

But thanks anyway for the condescending post

Cheers Paul

Fullflush

This is Rod, he is like it with everybody

Nobody is as rich as him, or makes as good life decisions as him. Despite the fact there are blatantly plenty of people on the forum with more money and success.

And nobody can build an engine apart from MAD, despite the fact SCS has a proven engine at the level above Rod's in the AG Focus, and others have hit 1000bhp+ years ago.

Caddyshack

I have 16 inch wheels, 3.9 diffs and close ratio box, I do have to keep changing gear to keep up with the revs but I love that on. Road car and track car, mine runs out of steam at 160mph...I think a normal cossie would still have 20mph to go?

I think I would love a 6 / 7 speed sequential and nearly went that route but I was warned off due to noise and road manners along with service life.

cossynut2

I have to agree with you regarding the Impreza gearing, I have helped my Son get his up to 370bhp and although it goes well you are constantly up and down the gearbox compared to my 2wd Saff. You can hold the Saff much longer in the gears and although mine is only 450bhp 110 in 3rd and 140 in 4th makes for pretty rapid progress. As others have said getting a Saff up to maximum revs in 5th does need quite a distance.

Caddyshack

What I don't get, Paul (turbotrev) is why you have fought so much against the efr...I haven't seen you write any reason why you wouldn't, if it isn't cost then why not do it...what is the reason that something else is better for you....there is no other turbo, especially t4 and gt30 variant that does anything better in any other area other than cost....unless I am missing something? I am genuinely interested, not looking to be right or wrong or pick an argument.

Yes, this is an engine thread but if a new build is Ł10k for the op and his block is an issue (205) then an OPTION is to go lower peak bhp and substitute with torque. Different outcome and lower cost.

The fanboys, and I am a card carrying member, tend to be efr owners and the people who fight it tend not to be....I don't understand why people don't use them, that's all.

Caddyshack

Also, Paul....join the debate, nobody is trying to be right or insult anyone, Rod is attacked just as often as he upsets people. We need people like Rod as he is our development, many advances have been down to the tuner wars, without them, whichever camp you were or are in we would not have got past the 500bhp marker or even cared about Cossies. If you love a good t4 then fine the advances were also made to silence the Rod camp by the competitors.

Caddyshack

I guess another side of the coin may explain things....I love the BMW 2002 turbo, it was one of the first turbo production cars, to me I would love to own one and put it on modern management and turbo...to the purist and collector this would devalue the car, they would savour the old Skool lag and feel it defines the car..same with a 930 porker, to me, I want to modify and improve it...this is due to my individual make up...my psych profile says I want to modify and simplify...this doesn't make me right or others wrong or right..it is just a preference that makes life interesting...some love the old t4...nothing, nothing boom...I do get it, just wouldn't want it myself. Neither is right or wrong.

turbotrev

Funny you say that as a mate of mine has a 2002 with an old BMW 8 valve turbo converted engine in it, it's on Emerald management to if I remember right.

Was recently mapped at HT Racing, lovely looking thing it is

Cheers Paul

Mark Shead

You need to drive a Cossie with shorter gearing as the stock one is hopelessly over geared it really wakes them up.

Mark

turbotrev

Disagree a bit there I'm afraid (surprise surprise)
Rod loves getting on his high horse and telling everyone 'if they can't afford the best then don't bother'
Or 'my car is so much better than anyone else's, it done 200mph over 10 years ago'

I'm not saying he's wrong and it is amazing what has been achieved but.... there's no need to keep on repeating the same shit everyone's heard a million times before.
We know he got unlimited cash, we know he's old, we know his car is fast has has a million hp, and not only that but the way he talks to people and comes across is soo rude.
He don't care though.
It's rods way or the high way, how to turn every post into one about his own car.
Bored of it.

Cheers Paul

Caddyshack

Cool, any links would be great..I love these cars

turbotrev

This is the only pic I have on my phone at the mo

Cheers Paul

turbotrev

Mine had/has shorter gearing than normal.

Definitely benificial.

Cheers Paul

Caddyshack

Wow, love that, is it an orig turbo or a replica? Either way...proper car. Thanks for posting

costina

iTrader: (1)

Just to add Simon Norris has been building mental powered evos and a few cossies for years.

Anyway back to to Rich's thread...

Mad_Mat

Looks pretty sweet that. Stance is good and sits nice on those wheels


Rich you gotta build an engine like you build a house. On strong foundations. Get a strong bottom end first. Big bhp can come later.

cossynut2

Mad_Mat. My Saff has old school engine spec by todays standards but its still going strong and so far has not let me down. When it was built it had a new standard size crank, competition bearings,uprated oil pump, new 200 wire rung block,all balanced, low comp pocketed Mahle pistons, group a spec ported and polished head with matching ported inlet, group A head gasket and BD10 & BD12 cams. It has a lightened flywheel, hydraulic clutch conversion with helix 6 paddle clutch, T38 with billet comp wheel, Siemens 83lb injectors, wasted spark ignition,L8 ecu with custom chip, new engine, fans and 044 pump wiring looms, pre-turbo cooler, RS500 style intercooler , uprated aluminium radiator and A&S hart style inlet.
It suits me but if and when it needs a re-build I will no doubt opt for some of the more modern things that are now available.
Sorry , just realised the second part of your post was for 3door Rich but I am also Rich and it is my car in the photo. I thought you were talking to me.

ajamesc

My old set up was 200 block standard rods and crank 4x4 pistons with valve cut outs. Marks cams ported head small turbo escort inlet and throttle body. 1000cc injectors and a gt3076. It was a really really fast car and it wasn't what I'd call laggy iver. Also had a gripper diff ap 6 paddle clutch and a cts big tooth gearbox. I am making big changes to the car now and taking the brog route but as a fast road car there certainly wasn't anything wrong with it as it was and I never came across anything as fast as it on 4 wheels on the road. But I'm under no illusions when it's back it will be a far better car

costina

iTrader: (1)

cossynut2 and Andy what was your bhp and torque figures??

cossynut2

When you have completed your latest build are you going to use it just for track days or still road and track? I think you mentioned before a 650 bhp target which will be awesome.

ajamesc

Mines a road car but I am making it so I can try a few track days. It's got fully adjustable suspension now and I'll most likely follow the black art coil over set up rod has also my fuel system will be good for track as I have swirl pot. I'm hoping for 650 or over time will tell I'm itching to get the thing together now lol

ajamesc

I was told by Mark around the 500/500 mark it sure didn't hang about lol

turbotrev

I'm not against it as such, I just wanna go another route, yeah it'll be an old turbo on an old engine management system (for now) but I was happy with the way my car drove and performed before so to have that feel but with another 150 odd hp will put a big smile on my face and thats what I'm after.

I know I still haven't been out in an efr equipped car yet but if I was happy before I can't go far wrong.
Queue Rod to tell me how wrong I am again and how I won't listen to him... lol

Cheers Paul

smiley

Aslong as your happy who cares

Mad_Mat

Yeah I was refering to 3dr rich but yours is a great spec mate and very nice it is to

I am rebuilding mine this summer, similar spec to yours but smaller turbo t35.55. Probably make 380 odd. I am really looking forward to getting it done.

cossynut2

Mine is up to 450bhp specc now.

costina

iTrader: (1)

Nice and more than enough for a road car.....

1300gt

iTrader: (2)

Yep, but that's not the subject rod?

Lad ..

cossynut2

I cant imagine what my car would be like with another 200 bhp!! It goes hard enough now but how are you going to get all that power down to the road? Mine is 2wd and dry road power slides are easy. Is yours 2wd or 4x4?

ajamesc

Good diff proper beam and suspension set up properly and r888's time will tell. Others do it so shouldn't be an issue

cossynut2

Its plenty to humble most modern "performance Cars". I have had some right laughs with plenty of cars that wrongly assumed an old 1990 Saff would not have much get up and go!!!