Mark Shead

At there level of understanding back then yes they was at the limit of it.
Ask me in 95 what was the max you could get out of a Yb and we are now over 200hp past that level as I was at my then limit of understanding.

Mark

Caddyshack

Isn't that an oxymoron? We ARE saying to run at as higher ratio as you can BECAUSE things have moved on from the 90's due to ECU management, intercooler and turbos

Rod-Tarry

Wow!! How wrong can you be. My engine has been developed over a 20 years period its now on a different planet as I have followed the developments as they have happened. Turbos spinning up 1000rpm quicker than anything available back then. Means better response at 900bhp than 500bhp back in the late 90's. The Spec-R intercooler developed for my car improved CA by around 25 deg after a Topspeed run in fact we saw negative temperatures on initial acceleration. Im talking the Bar & Plate Top Entry not the many copies that look the same but don't have the core of the Spec-R. The Emtron ECU is a vast step forward compared to what I used previously allowing control of just about everything I have 31 sensors on this new engine it even knows what fuel is in the tank so the wrong map cant be used. CR is a compromise on mine at 8.5:1 because I want to see over 800bhp on pump fuel as its a Road car. It would be 9.5:1 if we were only using Purple fuel.

GARETH T

i got a joke
"KNOCK KNOCK


Dont worry i'm the same as i was in the 90's"

Caddyshack

I think you are getting very confused with your arguments, we are genarally all saying that it IS NOT anything like the 90's, things have moved on, you SEEM to be in agreement with this but then you say nothing has changed much? I am really confused by your posts.

Just to clarify:

Higher compression seems to be better
Intercoolers have got better
Cars are making more power
Ecus have got better
Turbos are better

Is there any of that you do not agree with?

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Welsh cunt

Caddyshack

Subtle as always, jay

800bhp

Even your jokes out of date must people have door bells fitted

Caddyshack

Yeah but a door bell is no faster than a knock, but it is so it's better but it is not better, cos it isn't but also it is better.

markk

iTrader: (2)

The fundamentals of the combustion process has not changed. The material in the block/head has not changed, the control of ignition point has not changed, the sequential fuel injection has not changed.

I am pretty sure that Mike & Keith were pretty good at engine design even in the 80s.

I agree that turbo technology has improved, we have a greater control over the fuel flow, we have got better at preventing the onset of knock in charge air cooling, and we can all put 5000 sensors on our engines to monitor more and react in logic, but the combustion fundamental has not changed.

We have simply found better ways to prevent knock over time and distance.

puddy

Which tuner used to run a boost spike in his mapping to get the big number for a split second thus having bragging rights ?

Puddy

It's Czech Mate

The Gunship...?

GARETH T

That made me laugh, but you have missed what i have been saying, I'm not in any camp when it comes to compression ratios (all i said was run the highest you can, with highest being a relative term.)

Ok lets talk ECU's, tell me how the latest is better than a pectel T6 2000 from 2000's?

Caddyshack

An Emtron can react to fuel temperature, exhaust gas temperature, raise or lower the fuel pressure by controlling the pump, it can swap the map depending on fuel quality, anti lag, launch controls, gearbox control such as 2wd and 4wd split (for active cars) I am sure Mark can tell us many other things that I do not know, but I am sure much of this can be used to control the knock that you mention. Not sure if the pectel can run coil on plug but I am sure it cannot run 4 drive by wire individual throttle bodies which can be used to map the throttle too and have much better part throttle control. The Emtron can monitor turbo speed as well.

Did the pectel run closed loop...I don know if it can or cannot myself.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

the pectel t6 could do that and more toby from memory the last time Gareth and and I meet up we mapped a car must of been 10 years ago now lol but any way he had a t6 on his escy and there was over 270 maps on that ecu to control many many things and it's took a long time gorgeous ecu designers to even remotely catch up with how the t6 worked let alone features. It is a shame as the only reason the t6 isn't that common is they stopped producing them and there getting very old now and impossible to repair

some features
multiple throttle control
closed loop throttle control lamba Egt coil on plug launch anti lag traction control closed loop boost control fuel pressure control oil pressure control ect it is very comprehensive ecu toby

Adam-M

That's interesting Jay, do you think modern ecus have any real world benifet to the T6?

Didn't mike rainbird not used to say fuel from the 90's had a chemical in it that helped produce more power?

How has modern turbos allowed you to run higher comp? From what I gather the biggest advantage of a Borg warner is faster spool?

markk

iTrader: (2)

Price, availability, support and user interface.

GARETH T

BTW modern ecus are better than ECUs of yesterday!
Thermal management to gain thermal stability is where all these multipliers/correction factors come into play, but have you ever tried to map them? its a huge lengthy process that only OEM's/full blown race outfits see the real benefits and huge expense.

I think what has changed is not the technology but the appetite for the number!

GARETH T

none of these effect POWER, or to put better the effects of compression ratio (i do agree with you though)

GARETH T

basically it was just a profiled boost curve, not a static number like alot are mapped.
This is how it should be done really, boost pressure is just like ignition advance, and as such it should be mapped and be dynamic to the current engine perimeters
nothing to do with bragging rights

markk

iTrader: (2)

That's what I said, they are the only way these new ecus are better.
You can buy a SimTek pro for less than Ł1000 with more functions than you need in a WRC car let alone a fast road car.

That is less than a used T6 and its brand new.

The additional functions allow better control for the every day use. Hence we can all cruise round in a 600hp car with the manners of a 80hp car.

Then, when really racing the ecu can manage high temps, it can achieve optimal ignition angles against variables derived from the combustion process.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

As mentioned above there is no product service for the t6 now so just that alone no and with how good link/vipec and emtron being so advanced no not really and fuel years ago had some funky additives lol but tbh most of the fuels today are quite good now with modern additives so I don't believe there is a lot in it now

Turbo technology doesn't really have much to do comp ratio the big thing with turbos is how they flow and how quick the restriction is altered because that's what a turbo is until is actually creates power

ajamesc

lol go in a top spec 80-90's car on a t4 then go in one of marks very latest set ups or one like rods and then say things haven't really moved on lol

Rod-Tarry

Great debate but not one in which people are going to change there minds. Its about the only thread in the last 2 years that ive discussed off the Internet. I go to Marks 3 times a week & this has come up over the Cheese sandwiches a couple of times. The internet is full of experts who know they are right. Just pick one & follow what they say & enjoy your car it should be what its about.

Adam-M

Don't think anyone is disagreeing that higher comp is better

nixon_2wd

I disagree. Modern turbos make boost faster and they've got a higher surge limit at lower RPMs, meaning you can run higher boost at a lower RPM and still avoid surge. To boost higher at low RPM you need to lower the compression ratio to avoid knock. It's duo to the dynamic compression ratio - which is a function of static CR and valve timing.

800bhp

TAGS

ajamesc

I guess as long as your happy with your car once done it doesn't matter which route you take if you get the results your after. Many see tuning an old ford as a waste of money but if your on the sight it is something that's meant to interest you. Some are happy with doing things as they have been done for many years. Most are limited buy the money they can waste on there car. Some like to try the newer ways of doing things each there own at the end of the day I guess

COLEYST200

iTrader: (3)

I like that reply ROD

Caddyshack

Rod, there are far better sandwiches available.

COLEYST200

iTrader: (3)

I think it's standard compression then LOL
THIS POST HAS BEEN FAB

GARETH T

Agree


TOTALLY DISAGREE

GARETH T

Please dont think i am knocking Marks engines, i honestly would very much like to go for a blast one of them. In fact if i was to have another cosworth mark would be having a phone call to discuss possibilities,

All i wanted people to do is question why tuners ran relatively low compression highly tuned YB's in the early days, yet today its seems excepted that today we can run relatively high compression ratios in highly tuned YB's. Ive never said i know the answer to these questions.

1300gt

iTrader: (2)

Yep,

That's all the equation of cylinder pressure

1300gt

iTrader: (2)

It was a bum steer... BUT

We have better intercoolers, injectors, & more. Tuners that understand & measure the actual dynamics under load condition

GARETH T

ok lets talk intercoolers

there is two things we have as goals when designing intercoolers. Pressure drop across them at desired flow rates and efficiency of cooling (delta t)
please explain how much better these new intercoolers are, and how they allow such a dramatic change to compression rations (keeping on topic and not drifting like others)

now lets talk injectors
how are they better (in regards to topic) have we ever really struggled in this department?

and what the hell does this mean?

cossynut2

My 2wd Saff has an engine spec from the 90s including low comp, wire rung 200 block,t38 with billet compressor wheel, L8 ecu, Siemens 83 lb injectors and wasted spark ignition etc and it shocks anyone who comes in it for the first time at how hard it goes.
By todays standard it is now old fashioned tuning but it still suits me. When this engine gives up I will look at the latest ideas and use them but in the meantime will keep enjoying mine the way it is.

smiley

Good to meet ya last night ian all the best with the build i won our first drag race up the hill

It's Czech Mate

Stav has just started shouting about Compression ratios

Mad_Mat

I would be very happy to have that spec mate. Nothing wrong with that. Sure things have moved on but thats still pretty sweet.