Wasted spark problem? Only firing half the coil pack?
 

I seem to have a problem with the Escort.
It's had a misfire at 4K which I haven't been able to get rid of. It starts on the button, idles fine and revs cleanly at a standstill but misses, pops and bangs under load.

Tonight I noticed something odd. I've been fault finding swapping ignition amps, changing spark plugs,sensor gaps etc but nothing has worked. Then, I pulled the HT leads off the plugs one at a time and cylinders 1 and 3 have a real strong healthy spark which jumps off the lead into the head with a crack but 2 and 4 don't. They need to be pressed up against the plug/ head and have only a small tick rather than a crack. It seems the spark is very weak on those two cylinders. It's not a problem with the leads as I swapped them around, (swapped lead 1 into coil pack slot 4 and the spark to 1 was then weak and 4 was strong) it seems like the coil pack itself is sending a weak spark from 2 and 4 (bottom right and top left holes) but it's a brand new Bosch item from Matt Lewis. Anyone else had this?

I can't see it being a problem with the wasted spark driver as surely that would make a whole side of the coil pack go down, cylinder 1 and 4, it seems to be one cylinder from each side of the coil?
I'm also wondering if it's something to do with my AGM battery as it seems very temperamental since it was accidentally shorted?
I'll ring them Tomoz. This is what it's doing.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/murr...n2bof.mp4.html

And running

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/murr...zzbyd.mp4.html

Coil packs aren't reliable, but a new one should be ok!

I would still try and find a known good one to try instead. If it does the same, look at the battery perhaps.

What management are you on?

Weber L8 with Pectel board and MSD wasted spark driver.

Ok, know nothing about that unfortunately.

I've had an ignition driver go on Omex from the coil pack dying. That means a new coil pack and it only fires on 2 cylinders obviously.

I would try and borrow a known good coil pack to try. If you get the same result I would look elsewhere.

Could you not go coil on plug if you've got a separate wasted spark driver?

Hi mate I just hate it when I have problems like this . Did the car have wasted spark befor if so try the old coil back pack on it . All so Stu would say exactly as you now run 2 amps they now do 2 cylinders a each witch way round I can not remember so try swooping the amps round and see if the fault moves I think it might move . I can not see it being the wasted spark bord my self . Have you done away with the dizzy as if not you are still relying on the fazz sensor so you need to check that . Plus to be onist the standerd coil packs are ok but iv had my fair share of bad ones in my time so now I run a MSD coil pack from burton power . So check the appams first and come back to us . O your battery would not course this problem

No, it's a new conversion onto wasted spark. So everything is brand new. I've swapped ignition amps over and tried my spare on each and it hasn't changed it. Also, if it was amp related I would think the problem would be on the same side of the coil pack as the WS fires 1 and 4 and 2 and 3 together, but the weak spark is on 2 and 4 so can't get my head around it. Maybe I have been unlucky with a duff coil pack...
The engines a ZVH so has a phase sensor set up on the cam which is new.

I'd guess a goosed coil pack or maybe check to see if the soldering is still intact where the wasted spark board goes in the cossie ecu, especially if it's been DIY soldered in.

Just for info my 1990 Efi Orion is exactly the same as you describe with spark strengh.
Dave

I had exactly the same when I converted a fiesta to Weber and wasted spark, the driver had packed up, ( was brand new ) and when I googled it, a lot of people had similar problems.

Was it the MSD wasted spark driver which had packed up? Did they replace it?

Now you think it could be the bord just ring MSD best thing to do now mate

I'll ring them Tomoz. This is what it's doing.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/murr...n2bof.mp4.html

I don't see how that can be related to the driver at all, it commands the coil to fire in pairs, 2 and 3 are firing from the same side of the coil, so if 3 is sparking ok the driver is working fine. It has to be coil, lead, or the ground your asking the spark to jump to in that area imo

Have you tried swapping 2 and 3 on the coil end? As they can go in any position as long as they are on the right side, see if the problem moves with the swap

Check the voltage at the centre pin of the coil too

That's makes two of us, because surely the driver is sending the signal as far as the coil pack for it to be firing what it is.

If you look at this diagram this is how it's wired and set up, except I have plug lead 1 in the slot for 4 as its so long so helps keep it tidy. So going off this dig fan coils 4 and 3 fire the strong spark. Diagnonally opposite coils on the pack.

Attachment 17609

I've swapped the leads and it makes no difference so the only thing it can be is the brand new, Bosch coilpack which cost me £60!

I'd be very suprised if it was the CoilPack. You not got any spare/access to a spare just to check. Seems silly paying out for something that can be proven/disproven in seconds

I've not got a spare, but the car is now off to Jano's on Sunday so he should sort the problem pretty quickly, I'd imagine.

Guys again for info, I have three genuine ford packs and have stopped mine and all do the same. Interested to see what outcome is on this. Good luck.
Dave

Haven't read every post but one stood out to me, was the spark issue on two different banks, M.A.D Mark mentioned on a thread of mine about swapping the leads round and hay presto i couldn't believe it - i'll try and find my thread

Yes, Chris. One strong spark and one weak spark on each bank.

Cheers for that, Chris. I'm not sure that will solve my problem, though, but I'll try it. The problem is my car does start, idle fine and drive. Just as soon as it comes on boost or gets to around 4K if revs are brought up steady it plays up.
The order the leads were on the coilpack wouldn't explain the weak sparks shown in the video, either. It would be sparking fine, just at the wrong time, I would have thought.

This is it running

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/murr...zzbyd.mp4.html

Just had another quick play.

Swapped ignition amps around and problem still the same. Weak spark on same cylinders, 2 and 4. So not ign amps.

Swapped leads. Still the same. So not leads.

Swapped leads to other side of coil pack. So 1-4 on 2-3 and vise versa. Car wouldn't start and banged. Swapped back round and fired straight up and idled fine again. Weak spark on 2 and 4 again.

Tested input voltage to centre wire on coil pack 14.6volts.

Removed wasted spark driver and re fitted. No change...

might try a new coilpack on it tomorrow and see what happens. Can always take it back I guess.

Keep at it mate!

This is the exact reason I went vipec, too many threads like these. I had l8 and pectel before...was a different car every time I drove it. Fitted vipec, it was like a brand new mondeo from then forward.

I agree Caddyshack, my experiance of L6 pectal board and wasted spark were not very enjoyable. Even megasquirt is better for me.

Turns out it's not an ECU or driver problem, after all. Seems to be electronic interference from the Cam or Crank wires from using twisted pair instead of shielded cable.
Used the problem as an excuse to upgrade to my P8 ECU instead, anyway.

How will changing ecu fix a loom issue? Or have you altered the loom now?

Altering loom as well but as its down at Jano's already, using the workshop time as an excuse to install my P8 and upgrade to Grey's with ALS for a bit more power.

Cool, glad you got to the bottom of it.

The P8 is far far better at dealing with noise and poor signal strength, quite a few that have issues on L8 I've known to be instantly "fixed" by using the P8 which can deal with the issues,
I wouldn't say it's a proper fix as the problem is still underlying, but it works in quite a few cases.
On the RS Turbo conversions I always doubted if the Fred in a shed metal brackets and trigger rings, then using the wrong sensors for the wrong jobs helped things.

Loomer keep doubting, when Fred makes his own triggers and brackets they do tend to mess up. If you buy one from a tested tuner that has sold loads of them and fitted loads, even supplied most tuners with them UK and europe. Some have issues, when some people don't really know what they are doing or putting ECU'S in the fridge and trying random pot luck efforts. Then blaming the lack of brain cells on whatever they can. If thats a dodgey board, bad install or just plain stupid. The best trigger setup works 100% and has done for over 20years now. So less of the knocking unless you have had enough hands on experience fitting and tuning them to comment like that. Some of the best, fastest, well known cars run sequential using decent triggers. Regardless of brand of ecu all work faultless regardless of what sensors used and how bracketed. I have mapped almost every system using the triggers and none of them didn't work.

Thanks for your input tho as it helps others see when people just chat what they have heard or have their own political agenda like some that have commented on this post have.

Just to add I have spent some time on Muz's car and guess what it has nothing to do with triggers or sensors they work perfect, as expected. As does the management system.

I will keep doubting don't worry about that.
I have live mapped quite a few on Weber
I would say out of the last 10 Ive seen, 2 have worked, the rest have arrived with cam/crank sync errors flagging up, with people thinking the car has a low rev limiter when it's not the rev limiter at all, or had to run sensor gaps so small that with a combination of heat and engine vibration the sensor touches the trigger and kills itself and they arrive as non runners.

You say you have mapped quite a few on weber, then say 10.
Can you list these cars with pictures of them. Not that we don't belive you ;) It's just that we know of most weber converted cars and there is not 10 that we don't know about ;)

Then you go on to say that when they arrive with you they don't work, is that the whole point of them bringing it to you then. To fix.

Funny how people have had the same cam sensor on their car for over 10 years without issues. Maybe it's down to who fits and maps the system with experience over someone who just says they can do it.

So how is your fix done then? I guess you have designed something better to have sequential injection. Please by all means send me one to try out and I'll happily admit yours is better than others on offer.

I don't keep a photo catalogue of customers cars, why would I?
But believe it or not, I couldn't really care less if you believe me😉 over the 7 years I was workshop manager at MSD we mapped plenty of them.
Arriving for mapping, but then ending up with headaches.
Now im running my own place I dont get involved with them, it's easier for me to say no these days😊 And I dont have the time for it.

I'm not sure how you know or why you think the conversions were yours though? I've seen allsorts over the years.


Is that enough hands on experience to allow me to comment on a public Internet forum?
I certainly don't have a political agenda, or anything to prove, I just come on here to help people and as I don't sell these conversions, but you do, it would seem your the one with the political agenda

The agenda is to show people that if you know what you are doing, you can complete the task in hand. Regardless of headaches. That's the whole reason that they would of brought the car to you for. To sort the headaches out for them.
At least you now clarify that it wasn't my conversions, which beings me back to.... if you have proper components and parts fitted, it will work. Without headaches or the issues that you mention.

Like I said you fit random parts off Fred and what do you expect.

So conclusion here is that you are well experienced to give the exact answers I expected.