turbotrev

A few posts have gone up about efr turbo equipped cars over the past few years now on here as well as on the escort Cosworth forum.
Just wondering apart from the obvious low lag and better drivability of cars with efr turbos are there performance any better since changing from T34's of gt series turbos etc??
You see a lot of good power graphs and reviews on them but how do they equate in actual performance?
I'm still yet to see any big power efr turbo cossies run up Santapod or do any topspeed style runs etc??
Anyone know of any?
Be interesting to see how they are performance wise to the usual tried and tested stuff...

Cheers Paul

stevieturbo

Would there even be enough Cossies with any sort of turbo to make a list these days ? lol

Nevermind one with a specific brand of turbocharger.

Caddyshack

I wonder if quarter mile times would be very different as surely a laggy turbo would be revved before pull away / launch so well and truly spinning and as you change up close to red line it would be in its best spot, it is on the road in normal driving that you would see the biggest impact. I have got one on my Cossied pug running 470bhp...it is awesome, I upgraded from a T34 which was laggy.

turbotrev

I'm guessing you weren't running 450 ish hp before when using the T34?
Your T34 was laggy!??

Cheers Paul

Caddyshack

No, I went from 330/350 bhp straight to 470 and the efr makes more power at 2500/3000 revs that the t34 did at any point in the Rev range according to the dyno print plus it spools so much faster. I did swap from l8 to a vipec and a new loom too plus I think MAD mapping helps even though I did have an Ahmed bayjoo chip in the l8.

stevieturbo

The drag strip is maybe one of the worst places to try and shout any praises about a particular turbo setup vs another, especially if top end power abilities are the same.

If it's making the power, unless it's terrible low down, it should run similar trap speeds and times ( although times are very launch and driver dependent )
It would take a terrible driver to affect trap speeds much though.

But road, transients, on/off boost, lower rpms, mid range etc are all where the EFR's should really shine.

Mark Shead

You hit the nail on the head.

Mark

Mark Shead

I havent sold a non EFR turbo in nearly 5years shows you how much I rate them,
Power is easy responce and power is not you really need to drive a correctly set up car with a EFR and you Will get it.

Mark

turbotrev

I'm totally getting that it's the response, low lag, quick spool up etc that these turbo packages deliver, and I know everyone who now has one or switched to one from other turbos praises them as well.
But has anyone noticed a difference performance wise?
Any of your customers ran quicker or slower times on the quarter Mark after switching turbos to an efr?
As Mark said that's all he's sold these past 5 years and I know cossies are not as common anymore it's just I'm yet to see any deliver good performance or stats compared to the 'old' technology....
Anyone out there know/experienced different??
Anyone using an efr on level 8 or P8??

Cheers Paul

lee2cossies

iTrader: (2)

There was a 700+hp 3 door at Central day yesterday running a efr, I seen it run 13.7 but not sure if it went faster later. There's also a 4wd that's running a efr around 500hp and that runs high 11's. Iv got a sx200 on mine and will be trying it over the 1/4 soon.

Mark Shead

The 520hp Saph run a 11.01 at 124mph on its best day,
The 3dr is running 654hp on his own spec engine and is CossieKing on the Escort forum, I heard it run a 11.2 but I dont know anymore.

Mark

Rod-Tarry

I will be doing an EFR Topspeed run but you cant tell anything from that, any Turbo making the same Power will run the same Topspeed. Mark is developing the 9180 on an EVO & then mine. The EVO is spooling at least 1000rpm before my GT42 & better than a GT35 & close to a GT30. Mark Hudd has a 9180 on his 3dr maybe PM him & ask how it goes.

stevieturbo

Surely the fact they are praising them tells you their performance is better ?

And as I said, given the 1/4 mile is probably the worst "performance" test ever for an EFR, why would you think a result would change because of one ? Given it's virtually full throttle the entire way. There is almost no reason for a similar powered car to go faster because of an EFR vs a different turbo.

Now if you're simply comparing an EFR turbo car that makes more power, to a car with an alternative turbo that made less power...well that again isnt even a comparable test. They're just different so results will be different.

A car with 700+ should be trapping in the 140+ range. Whilst ET's arent always a great indicator, 13.7 is poor for that sort of power.

Caddyshack

Erm, it doesn't sound like you are hearing us, the performance is easily shown, my car made much more power. We have said that the drag strip will not make much difference against another car with similar headline power. My car would be much faster up,the strip now as 330 bhp vs 470 would make the difference but if you have a t4 at 400 bhp and efr at 400 bhp I doubt there would be much in it on a draga strip, on the road thent4 would be left behind on give and take roads with lots of speed changes such as roundabouts.
Most people will go to efr to add power though I.e. They are at 300 and want 500 bhp

So, drag strip, doubt much difference, road lots of extra performance.

turbotrev

Is that Jon Gambles 4x4 and and Mark Hudds 3dr your talking about?

Cheers Paul

Mark Shead

Yes.

Mark

lee2cossies

iTrader: (2)

Very impressive time from the saff then it looked to be getting off the line good! Only seen the 3 door run once so must have gone faster later.

markk

iTrader: (2)

What are the BW efr's like with antilag?

Mark Shead

They are fine.

Mark

3doorcozmess

I'm sure I read of some one mapped a Efr on a L8 or was going to try.

That would be interesting to know if it can be done or why it can't.

Mark Shead

It can be done but you are hampering a Modern turbo with a Very Old Ecu.

Mark

turbotrev

I get what your saying on doing a top speed run.
So with it spooling up 1000 revs earlier will it hold power the same as before on the gt42/35 or will it run out of steam earlier?

Cheers Paul

turbotrev

I thought quarter mile terminals were a good indication of the cars power?

Cheers Paul

turbotrev

So what if I had a car specced at say 400hp on a t34 with accompanying mods ie cooler, bigger injectors, etc etc then switched to an efr with the same accompanying mods would it make more power?
Forgetting spool up time and driveability

Cheers Paul

Mark Shead

Yes it will make more power the same as putting on a t4 will make more power as you are putting on a bigger turbo.

Mark

turbotrev

So it wouldn't work as well on weber management?
How comes?
Would that restrict power or just the driveability? Or both....

Cheers Paul

Mark Shead

It will work as well as any Garrett turbo but the Webber Is old and out of date and there are improvements by changing to a new ecu.

Mark

stevieturbo

They are and it's exactly what I said.

stevieturbo

There are lots of models of EFR.

Random question ?

If you fit a 400hp EFR, then no it will not make more power than a 400hp T34.

If you fit a 600hp EFR, then clearly yes there would be an expectation of more power than a 400hp T34

But you would sort of expect that ? Much the same as if you fitted a 600hp GT35 you'd expect more than a 400HP T34

turbotrev

I meant the efr equivalent to a t34 though not just going bigger (or do people not bother)
As like you say you could just fit a t4/gt30 etc.
Anyone out there switched turbos and gained a power difference on a similar size efr equivalent....

Cheers Paul

turbotrev

So if I had a 400hp efr engine vs a 400hp t34 engine they would be just a fast/quick as each other?
As 400hp is 400hp?
(Say torque is similar too)

Cheers Paul

stevieturbo

So you're expecting a 400hp turbo, to make more than 400hp ?


Hmmmm, you're not getting this, are you ?


Or what are you referring to when you state "size" ?

stevieturbo

If you're referring to 1/4 mile and a competent driver. Then of course times/traps will be similar.

As said before, why would you expect them to be any different ?

400hp only changes from 400hp when pub dynos get involved.

Rod-Tarry

Power/Torque may be the same but spool will be better on the EFR.
You can therefore fit a larger EFR & get the same response as the smaller Turbo. In my application a EFR9180 will make similar Power to a GT42 but will spool 1000rpm earlier. On the road this will be chalk & cheese making the car much easier to drive.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I have this discussion quite a lot with customers looking for different turbos so understand where the fella is confused and understand what he is looking for. The question seems to be - if you already own a 420bhp .63 T34 car and fit a comparable EFR turbo in the hope of setting it also to 420bhp, will the car be faster?

As I'm lying in bed it's hard to show the difference visually without Dyno graphs but think of it this way.
A turbo just makes a small engine into a big one, and it does that with pressurised air, so the faster it delivers the air, the faster you get a bigger engine. At idle, the YB is a 2 litre. A good one, at 15psi is closer to a 4 litre. The faster you can get that 15psi, the quicker you have the 4 litre engine.

The EFR's SPOOL is better, so it will feed the engine with the boost faster than a T series. Also, the engines response time between you changing your foot from power fully off, to power fully on will be greatly reduced with a faster spooling turbo, so regardless of final power being the same, the EFR will deliver it sooner when asked as it can go from zero to say, 40psi faster than any T series.

Secondly, as spool is much improved, your torque band should move left as the engines getting bigger, faster, thus giving you more useable torque area UNDER THE GRAPH. As an example, the T34.63 tends to make peak boost on the Dyno, when floored at 2000rpm, by around 4000rpm. An EFR will deliver the same amount of air by around 3500rpm. This is because the EFR turbo requires less energy to rotate it so it rotates up to the required speed faster. for any engine driven in this lower engine speed area, the car WILL be faster than a comparable T series equipped car driven at the same speed in the same gear. IE: 70mph roll on in 5th gear side by side.

That's why folk are saying ignore drag strips, as that's about top end power and most turbos here will be equal, as BHP is BHP. Once your out of first gear, a drag car never sees low engine speeds or has worries about spool times as it's just wide open throttle and high revs all the way. That is NOT a test of a turbos responsiveness, it's only a test of is ability to flow air with its wastegate opening and open. A road car turbo test is all about what it does with the wastegate shut. Two very different metrics.

turbotrev

Thanks Rod, that does make sense and yes Stevieturbo I do get it, maybe it's the way I'm trying to word posts, sorry about that.
I don't mean will a said 400 turbo make more than 400 as it won't because it's a 400hp turbo, so out of the two turbo setups at the same power which would be quicker?
I know the efr would spool up quicker but wouldn't the t34 (in this said example) make power higher up in the Rev range where the efr' tend to drop off?

Cheers Paul

turbotrev

Very good explanation there Stu, nice one, very interesting stuff.
So because if it's in a road application that's where the efr turbos are really good I get it.

So with them spooling up quick and moving air faster are they also losing the ability to do this at the top end of the scale hence their power is made earlier on low down?
Do they run out of steam quicker and it's just the power band on the efr turbos is lower than the T series/gt series turbos?

Just for the record I have a 2wd saff on a gt30.
I'm not looking to change it (not yet anyway) was just intrigued about finding out more on these efr turbos.
I just find it weird you don't see many being used on tracks/drag strips etc, or are they......

Cheers Paul

stevieturbo

No, because that would largely be dictated by other factors. If the turbo was dropping off badly, then it would need to be much smaller, but then it wouldnt be a 400hp turbo. It would be smaller.

For most part though, the EFR would be quicker in every respect. You're comparing literally an ancient T series to a modern turbo.

Almost any modern turbo will be faster of equivalent power rating. On the drag strip not so much, but that's already been explained.

Mark Shead

I have tested a gtx3071 against a 7064 and at 3800rpm the Efr was making 500ftlb and the gtx was 175ftlb. With that diff why would you ever want to fit another gtx turbo. The same goes for the rest of the range I have tested.

Mark

800bhp

I just find it weird you don't see many being used on tracks/drag strips etc, or are they......

Cheers Paul[/QUOTE]

This car has a EFR fitted