Chip

iTrader: (3)

Indeed, but only if it happened for long enough as their is normally an overboost period that has to be exceeded before it counts as an error, and then how many cycles does it stay logged as an error once you fix the fault before it the puts the error code back off etc?
And then it might still have one of those errors anyway even with a remap.
Its nothing like definitive.

Unless you have detailed data logs (and bear in mind the mapper can easily wipe them or alter them!) showing exactly what has happened in the past it would be very hard to say for certain that it had some different values in its table for a while and they're all back now.

I think it would be very hard for ford to PROOVE it had been remapped for a while if its all taken off again properly and put back how it was.
They might have some really stong suspicisions, but they cant not honour a warranty claim just cause of that.

Azrael

Of course deceiving them like that in order to claim warranty repairwould be a criminal case in any country and anyone must decide if it's worth that much to them. Myself I don't think I would go for it.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Its not criminal to put your car back to standard before you hand it back for a warranty, you have only done anything wrong if you tell them it was never chipped in the first place. If they dont ask you, and just dont realise it was, you havent done anything you could be prosecuted for, and even if you did outright lie in this country it would be civil not criminal still I believe, although would need to check with a lawyer to be certain.

Azrael

There might be bigger difference then I thought then. In Poland even trying to claim insurance in this case is attempt at fraud (I do not know more precise legal term in English, this is very specific type of it that surely has a name). Although I have yet to hear of someone convicted for that.

Rick

Any over-rev triggers a warranty void flag in the ECU, but it really is quite trivial to remove.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Annoying if you bought the car 2nd hand not knowing it had been over revved!

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

Whats over revved?

JoeE30

Wild stab in the dark.......

Where you over rev the car due to new higher revving parameters?

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

or selected 2nd instead of 4th

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Mechanically over revved, so either changed down to soon, or changed down when you intended to change up, so you force the car past its electronic rev limiter.

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

O ok get you.. I was going to say my Focus Rs has the red shift light when i get close to "over revving" never cut out yet but iv never been stupid enough to try and see what happens when the shift light on

JoeE30

Ive done that once or twice in my yuff...its painfull, engine wise and when your head nearly hits the windowscreen..lol

Chip

iTrader: (3)

When I hadnt finished the gear setup properly on my mid engined nova I picked 2nd instead of 4th by accident when accellerating flat out, the datalog went vertically off the top of the graph which went up to 10k!
I soon viewed getting the gears working properly as a proirity after seeing probably 11Krpm on my almost new very expensive engine!

Azrael

Routine stuff in motorsport - I could show you quite a few broken con rods and blocks with holes in them

Azrael

Your build must be seriously 'overengineered' if it lasted through that!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, Glad I had Arrow rods not cheap ebay steel ones, lol

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

I guy I know had a Fiesta ST that was involved in a massive smash. It had a standard map at the time of the crash but had previously been remapped. The insurance (allegedly) refused to pay out as they had the ECU checked and there was evidence that the car had had a different map on it at some point.

Would that be because the mapper didn't 'cover their tracks' or them blagging their way out of paying?

I know that a computer's HD never really delete's data (it just hides it and ovewrites it) is the same true for ECUs?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

We'll never know the answer to that of course.

Well once something is over written its gone, if there was a 0 and you set it to a 1, then the 0 doesnt exist anymore.
When a file is deleted on a PC, the file reference pointer is marked as deleted and the physical file is on the disk still.
When you edit a line in a text document and then save it though, the file is overwritten so the previous change is now gone.
A remap has much more in common with the second of those examples, as you are putting new values into an existing table, so the old values dont exist anymore.
But if of course on some other part of the chip there is a logging data stored that the remapped doesnt know he needs to reset, then its a different story.

There is no definitive answer to the "can they tell" question, if the mapper really knew what they were doing with the WHOLE ecu datastorage memory (which wont be available through ODB anyway) then im positive it would be possible to cover your tracks, but I cant see any mapper going to that much trouble given the amount of time its going to take to reverse engineer the entire ecu like that, they generally just find the tables they NEED to change and leave it at that more or less.

Azrael

This is not entirely true, in fact in high profile forensic analysis they can by using super precise equipment read previous state of each block on HDD's and floppies. It's not always possible, but I know a guy working for polish forensic lab that works for the police and our version of MI5 and they were able to read contants of low level formatted HDD's etc. (there was famous case of polish MP deleting incriminating evidence from her laptop couple of years back by formating the HDD). But I don't see anyone using this sort of equipment and effort for traffic accident or something similar.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Lol, I dont think that sort of analysis is of concern to us, it would be cheaper for ford to just say "here, have 2 new cars to replace your broken one"

Azrael

Arrow ones are good ones! You must have had good valve springs too!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yes, and solid lifters wqith deep rs200 style shims that cant dislocate at high rpm like the normal ones tend to.

What really amazed me though is that I was running plastic cambelt tensioners and they survived it.

Was only about 0.2 seconds or so though IIRC, so not like they were seeing that load for long.

I went straight home and changed the belt of course!

Azrael

With this sort of mistake on Subaru or Mitsu you usually get 16 broken valves

SiZT

As Rick said with the down shift and with a pipe coming off it should be reapired by Ford or your warranty is void.

Regardless to all of this, if someone is having their car remapped whilst in warranty they accept that it may cause calims to be refused.

Suprised you got away with an 11k over-rev Chip, as has been said, must've been a very well thought out engine

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

so what are the results then if you can remap them?

Also whats the standard performance figures so we can compare?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

My rods and valvetrain were essentially the same spec as on the touring car XE engines that revved nearly that far for a whole race anyway.
Thats the good thing about turboing an engine with a lot of N/A pedigree I guess, revs are not a problem

dojj

iTrader: (3)

after reading all that, it seems that james has jailbroken the ecu and can, at any time, resotre it back to ususal via itunes and then present the broken phone for waranty repairs to an apple employee

or have i totally missed the point of this odb input fiddling stuff?

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

Dojj you are correct, Steve Jobs left us the source code in his will

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

James, can you answer this please?

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

all the figures from our std engine re maps on these is on our website mate, in the chip search, we have been mapping them for ages

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

so why not just put them up on here as i cant be arsed to browse throuh to another site

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

because im working on a car running in the workshop and have other priorities,

if i get a chance i will do it later

Chip

iTrader: (3)

From the evolution chips site:


Before: 300bhp / 440NM
After: 345bhp / 535NM

or for those who prefer lbft

Before: 300bhp / 325lbft
After: 345bhp / 395lbft

foreigneRS

is that the same for non-volatile solid state memory though?

Azrael

I don't think so. The way I understand how flash memory works the data will be truely changed. I was just answering Chip's example with HDD's. I imagine it may be becoming less and less reliable with modern HDD's with super dense data too.

cj_rst

SSD's actually delete the data when you ask for it to be deleted - look up TRIM - that's how it works for solid state drives. Somewhat off topic, but anyhoo...

a4ron

i would say ask pumabuild about bneing the first person to do this as alan farmer has been mapping rs focus mk2 through obd for a while now

Mint FRST

iTrader: (1)

No mention on their website? I would have thought they would have been shouting it from the roof tops

I would imagine they BDM enable like all others...

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

Really? That's strange lol

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Perhaps they single handedly cracked one of the hardest ecu's around, and just didnt feel that they should tell any customers?

Or maybe like you say, they have to open it up first like everyone else has been doing for the last couple of years, then once they have tampered with it by putting ST firmwear on only THEN can they ODB it