OH MY F*CKING GOOD!!! 779bhp dynoed on cossie engine
08-02-2005, 09:09 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by Phil
In a race/track/top speed car you will be able to keep it in the powerband anyway so whatever goes on low down is neither here or there really...
Bet its a fooking monster to drive 
08-02-2005, 09:28 AM
#46
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Ah that'll be the engine in our next cover car then 
Out of interest saying you can't produce more out of the YB, John Tebenham's has made 850bhp+ on the engine dyno at Julian's and Ben's seen it with his own eyes! So beleive it or not, there's even more to come yet!
Good times ahead!
Out of interest saying you can't produce more out of the YB, John Tebenham's has made 850bhp+ on the engine dyno at Julian's and Ben's seen it with his own eyes! So beleive it or not, there's even more to come yet!
Good times ahead!
08-02-2005, 09:38 AM
#47
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08-02-2005, 09:40 AM
#48
Norris Motorsport
PfDave and all,
Pushing power limits is always an interesting thing from an engineering point of view, but in the real light of day, its of no consequence to 99.9% of people who use both sites like this and read magazines like PF, as its simply not representative of what we can practically use in our road cars!
A good example is if you throw enough money at any engine the limit really does become how much power the base engine design can cope with before catastrophic failure. Ok for racers and competition applications, not so usefull for your man in the street who may perhaps want his engine to last more than a few hundred miles!!!
Pushing power limits is always an interesting thing from an engineering point of view, but in the real light of day, its of no consequence to 99.9% of people who use both sites like this and read magazines like PF, as its simply not representative of what we can practically use in our road cars!
A good example is if you throw enough money at any engine the limit really does become how much power the base engine design can cope with before catastrophic failure. Ok for racers and competition applications, not so usefull for your man in the street who may perhaps want his engine to last more than a few hundred miles!!!
08-02-2005, 09:57 AM
#50
"its of no consequence to 99.9% of people who use both sites like this and read magazines like PF, as its simply not representative of what we can practically use in our road cars! "
I think it's 100% relevant to these people as what they can ACHIEVE with their cars.
I also think ItsMeAgain hit the nail on the head - 'practically use in our road cars' is a personal perspective. Some of these Scandinavians use their cars on the road a lot at 650-700+bhp and love it. On the other end of the scale, I personally think PRACTICALITY in a Cossie (ie., fuel consumption, traction etc.) is probably at the limit at around 330bhp ish. That doesn't mean all the cars at 400bhp+ are of no relevance or consequence to me though.
Ben
I think it's 100% relevant to these people as what they can ACHIEVE with their cars.
I also think ItsMeAgain hit the nail on the head - 'practically use in our road cars' is a personal perspective. Some of these Scandinavians use their cars on the road a lot at 650-700+bhp and love it. On the other end of the scale, I personally think PRACTICALITY in a Cossie (ie., fuel consumption, traction etc.) is probably at the limit at around 330bhp ish. That doesn't mean all the cars at 400bhp+ are of no relevance or consequence to me though.
Ben
08-02-2005, 10:01 AM
#51
PS - I also must say your comments and opinion about reliability / longevity regarding these engines is well known to me (i'm not getting into all that again!! 
) but the simple fact is - I've never seen or known one of these wild engines to go pop and all the ones I know run for a whle season and some even two with just oil / filter / plug and other consumable changes. After which, they just ahave a freshen up and check, and they're back out there again 
Ben
) but the simple fact is - I've never seen or known one of these wild engines to go pop and all the ones I know run for a whle season and some even two with just oil / filter / plug and other consumable changes. After which, they just ahave a freshen up and check, and they're back out there again Ben
08-02-2005, 10:05 AM
#52
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Karl
No one would buy performance ford if it was just 330bhp cossie's. "hmm, yes, now thats a sensible road car, interesting read"
Steve. I am confused. are you saying the above is a good graph or a shit one???
looks ok to me! 320bhp at well under 3000rpm and as much power as mine (440bhp) at about 4500! not like he's got nothing down low is it!
only dissappointement for me is that its on racefuel and not pump fuel. would be far more impressed if it was on optimax tbh but still
No one would buy performance ford if it was just 330bhp cossie's. "hmm, yes, now thats a sensible road car, interesting read"
Steve. I am confused. are you saying the above is a good graph or a shit one???
looks ok to me! 320bhp at well under 3000rpm and as much power as mine (440bhp) at about 4500! not like he's got nothing down low is it!only dissappointement for me is that its on racefuel and not pump fuel. would be far more impressed if it was on optimax tbh but still
08-02-2005, 10:07 AM
#53
Testing the future
if you're impressed with this, and maybe even more so if you're not, get your ass to norway to see these beasts in action. i went last year and it was the only place to be. will definitley be going agin this year. dates for gatebil (i think i have worked out that translates to 'street car') series already on their website www.gatebil.no
08-02-2005, 10:10 AM
#54
Norris Motorsport
Ben,
It's more about reliability and durability. There becomes a point for any engine where by the power returns are exponentially diminishing for engine life and cost, before we even consider drivability.
The reason I raise these issues is I'm often asked about producing engines with hugh power (predominantly for road cars) from small capacity and when I try to explain the complications, people are often blinkered because they've read somewhere (usually on the internet or in magazines) that joe blogs has a 700bhp YB and uses it in his every day car. This is of course looking at it rather optimistically, as a 700bhp YB engine is never going to last long!!
I'm not one for being a pessimist as I'm a true car enthusiast and enjoy the engineering challenges, but I like to keep things in perspective so that the vast majority don't assume these types of engines are without their own set of problems!!
It's more about reliability and durability. There becomes a point for any engine where by the power returns are exponentially diminishing for engine life and cost, before we even consider drivability.
The reason I raise these issues is I'm often asked about producing engines with hugh power (predominantly for road cars) from small capacity and when I try to explain the complications, people are often blinkered because they've read somewhere (usually on the internet or in magazines) that joe blogs has a 700bhp YB and uses it in his every day car. This is of course looking at it rather optimistically, as a 700bhp YB engine is never going to last long!!
I'm not one for being a pessimist as I'm a true car enthusiast and enjoy the engineering challenges, but I like to keep things in perspective so that the vast majority don't assume these types of engines are without their own set of problems!!
08-02-2005, 10:16 AM
#55
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foreigneRS, I have been talking about going with there a couple of people long ass way though! I would guess the performance ford boys will be there?
long ass way though! I would guess the performance ford boys will be there?
08-02-2005, 10:18 AM
#56
Hi karl, as per my previous post, I'm not getting into all that again. But I already answered your comment about, "reliability and durability" in my previous post -
"I've never seen or known one of these wild engines to go pop (Reliability) and all the ones I know run for a whle season and some even two with just oil / filter / plug and other consumable changes. After which, they just ahave a freshen up and check, and they're back out there again (Durability).
Cheers,
Ben
"I've never seen or known one of these wild engines to go pop (Reliability) and all the ones I know run for a whle season and some even two with just oil / filter / plug and other consumable changes. After which, they just ahave a freshen up and check, and they're back out there again (Durability).
Cheers,
Ben
08-02-2005, 10:30 AM
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I totall understand where Karl's coming from.
On the road, I can't understand the point of massive bhp, because there literally is nowhere to use it.
I suppose you could say there's one place, that being the motorway, but if you want to sit all day accelerating between 60 and 150, then save yourself some money and buy an M5 and do it in comfort.
I've also heard someone that most people couldn't use 75% of the power they have, so couldn't understand why they want more.
On the other hand, I totally understand number chasing. I remember Mike telling me that 500bhp begins to feel slow after a while - depends what you're used to.
Interested to see what transmission this particular car uses..........
On the road, I can't understand the point of massive bhp, because there literally is nowhere to use it.
I suppose you could say there's one place, that being the motorway, but if you want to sit all day accelerating between 60 and 150, then save yourself some money and buy an M5 and do it in comfort.
I've also heard someone that most people couldn't use 75% of the power they have, so couldn't understand why they want more.
On the other hand, I totally understand number chasing. I remember Mike telling me that 500bhp begins to feel slow after a while - depends what you're used to.
Interested to see what transmission this particular car uses..........
08-02-2005, 10:32 AM
#60
Norris Motorsport
Ben,
I know we've discussed it in the past and I for one certainly won't fall out about it on here. However we will have to agree to disagree, because such engines do have a very short life, primarily because the cylinder pressures and rpm's involved are bordering on the limit of what the base engine design can cope with!
As I said if you've been told and believe differently then so be it, but I assure you there is a straw that breaks the camels back, and the closer you get to that limit, the less viable the engine becomes!
I know we've discussed it in the past and I for one certainly won't fall out about it on here. However we will have to agree to disagree, because such engines do have a very short life, primarily because the cylinder pressures and rpm's involved are bordering on the limit of what the base engine design can cope with!
As I said if you've been told and believe differently then so be it, but I assure you there is a straw that breaks the camels back, and the closer you get to that limit, the less viable the engine becomes!
08-02-2005, 10:35 AM
#62
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Rich, then those people are 
need the power for Bike racing 
I dont understand why it would be unreliable though. as you change everything specifically to handle the power. with everything changed, why should it not take it??? where's the weak point?
need the power for Bike racing I dont understand why it would be unreliable though. as you change everything specifically to handle the power. with everything changed, why should it not take it??? where's the weak point?
Long dark days over there hasn't resulted in a massive population surge has it, so they've gotta be doing something else with their time!!
08-02-2005, 10:41 AM
#66
Testing the future
I dont understand why it would be unreliable though. as you change everything specifically to handle the power. with everything changed, why should it not take it??? where's the weak point?
08-02-2005, 10:47 AM
#68
Originally Posted by JAP CRAP
Rich, then those people are need the power for Bike racing
I dont understand why it would be unreliable though. as you change everything specifically to handle the power. with everything changed, why should it not take it??? where's the weak point?
need the power for Bike racing I dont understand why it would be unreliable though. as you change everything specifically to handle the power. with everything changed, why should it not take it??? where's the weak point?
Not one weak point, lots of weak points.
One fundamental thing you are battling against for example is trying to keep all that pressure above the rings, no rings hold back 100% of the pressure, and the further you push it with the figures the harder it gets, and the more that leaks past them the faster they wear out.
For the pistons to take the sort of heat involved (although again i guess their weather helps push this limit a lot further for them than it is for us) it means running massive piston to bore clearances and huge ring gaps i should think, neither of which are fantastically good news on a cold engine, so arent good for daily road use.
When you start approaching the point where the block is flexing a lot (the base engine limit karl refers to) the bores start going out of shape and making it even harder for the rings to seal, its a case of every bhp you add wears it out exponentially more quickly than the last one.
Chip
08-02-2005, 10:54 AM
#69
Norris Motorsport
Posted by Japcrap:
"I dont understand why it would be unreliable though. as you change everything specifically to handle the power. with everything changed, why should it not take it??? where's the weak point?"
I began to write a detailed reply and then realised its really not needed. In essence all you need to know is that every base engine design has limits with regards to physical strength and maximum rpm, and these factors are determined by the basic architecture of the engine. These factors directly control the maximum potential of any engine. The closer you get to this limit the more diminishing the return.
"I dont understand why it would be unreliable though. as you change everything specifically to handle the power. with everything changed, why should it not take it??? where's the weak point?"
I began to write a detailed reply and then realised its really not needed. In essence all you need to know is that every base engine design has limits with regards to physical strength and maximum rpm, and these factors are determined by the basic architecture of the engine. These factors directly control the maximum potential of any engine. The closer you get to this limit the more diminishing the return.
08-02-2005, 11:03 AM
#72
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by foreigneRS
and i guess a 205 block designed in the early 70's for the cortina is not the height of sophistication?
08-02-2005, 11:04 AM
#73
Originally Posted by foreigneRS
and i guess a 205 block designed in the early 70's for the cortina is not the height of sophistication?
08-02-2005, 11:08 AM
#77
Norris Motorsport
Ben, you sarcastic ****. LOL
I though to myself why bother explaining the stresses induced in a hugely force inducted engine when its just easier to keep it simple!
That said though should'nt have expected any more from a journalist!!LOL
I though to myself why bother explaining the stresses induced in a hugely force inducted engine when its just easier to keep it simple!
That said though should'nt have expected any more from a journalist!!LOL
08-02-2005, 11:09 AM
#79
Originally Posted by PF Ben
PS - neither these guys or people in this country involved in motorsport Cosworth engines use the 205 block or stock 200s
Ben
Ben
08-02-2005, 11:11 AM
#80
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Originally Posted by PF Ben
But Rich, in Scandinavia a) there's LOADS of places to use BIG power (even Oslo Ring Road at rush hour is DEAD!), and b) 100% of the guys over there CAN use the power and can REALLY drive.
Ben
Ben
Ever heard about Scandinavian Traffic Police aproach to speeding? And what kind of speed limits are there?