1.9 xr2 on 40's

i had em in loads of rs turbos
never melted an engine yet, all mine died of shitbox oil pumps

worked fine

mrviper

in a standard car i wouldnt do it without a wideband fitted

but on somthing remapable then its well worth taking it to a tuner to get the best from it

stevieturbo

I'd say it's only the people who dont understand them, who hate them.


On the right application they are very effective and good value. They arent ideal for every setup, but can work with many.

series_one_rst

i`ve fitted one to my series one with a view to use it to reduce boost from pre set maximum. that`s surely an acceptable use?

Paul_RS

iTrader: (4)

That why they fitted one to my mates big BHP engine then?

foreigneRS

how much air do you think you'd have to bleed off for this to start to become an issue?

exactly, and closed loop cannot be done with a purely mechanical device. and you don't have to use a separate boost controller to get closed loop boost control, it can be done with some factory ecus, including cossie ones

that depends upon the structure of the material

chaffe

1/8" diameter bleed valve right open is a lot of air at 2 bar boost, you make the desicion as to wether or not you want that sort of boost leak, as you seem to know what we are talking about.

foreigneRS

i didn't say i know anything, i asked you

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

When my air injectors gave me problems at brunters so we swapped them for a bleed valve and did 194.7mph, the bleed valve provided a quick fix that stayed on the car for months

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

I most definitely undertsand them but still hate them !


No

I guess you are using the valve to reduce air flow out of the existing AMAL valve as thats the only way you could reduce the boost.


I will forgive you on that occasion

CossieRich

iTrader: (1)

Simon,

Why do you hate them though?

Paul_RS

iTrader: (4)

Maybe they aren't banner traders and have created an illegal thread?

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

They are just a cheap and nasty bodge IMO.
Also, as said, they are too easily adjusted and rarely sealed against tampering.


It would appear Mr R needs a bleed valve on his rear end so we can limit your brown nosing to him

CossieRich

iTrader: (1)

So really you dislike the people who tamper with them or do you also hate actuators and the fact that the pre-load can be adjudted to increase boost?

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Rich, its a personal view I suppose but an actuator is adjustable even though it is lockable but no one has come up with a main stream alternative to that and it is an item that does need adjustment from time to time.

Another view...
I just hate seeing a beautifully crafted YB engine with a bleed valve cabled tied to a boost hose or hanging in the air by the alternator.
It just looks out of place and screams "CHAV" to me !

And yes, any one who tampers with anything under the bonnet without understanding what they are really doing or the consequences, should be shot and the bleed valve is usually the first thing to touch

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

So whats your view on the bleed valves that actually improve the turbochargers spool up performance and give the car more power Simon?

Heitmann

iTrader: (1)

Would modding the Amal valve nylon inserts be seen as roughly same thing as fitting a bleed valve. Would that be a no no (according to some)?

the mk1 kid

They're cheap like the budgie.



That is not a fact. I could argue they are significantly less damaging than your ignition key is to your engine.

Tom

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Stu,
I have zero virews on that as I have never experienced that situation as I would never lower myself to using one to find out..lol
I am sure any spool up advantages you are talking about can be acheived with proper mapped and/or closed loop control anyway and then at least you can build some safety and control into the boost levels

series_one_rst

I've removed the Amal valve and fitted the forge valve in the dash area, was gonna set the max to 18-20 psi on the actuator then use the in car valve to tone it down when just toodling about. running megasquirt and lc1 wideband, surely the ecu map sensor will pick up the lower boost psi and adjust fuelling accordingly, once mapped right?

xr2wishy

iTrader: (2)

megasquirt will do that for you.

series_one_rst

well i bloody hope so now. haha! nice one mate.

chaffe

i think you have got it round the wrong way a bit, you need to set the actuator soft, at your LOWEST boost level, and use the bleed valve to INCREASE the boost to the maximum of said 18-20 psi, hope this helps you thanks

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

we have been here earlier in the topic I recall. That just results in a peaky boost delivery, ok if you want 200ftlb of torque but still 130bhp. LOL

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

You should take the blinkers off for a while and examine some of the modern products on the market. They are very good indeed and can work WITH the Amal to increase spool up and retain all factory safety features. Example here:

Plus they come with a bracket, so no tie wraps or bits of string and crisp packet mountings that you hate so much.

chaffe

i know, i read that, but i was just helping this lad understand how to run a hi-lo boost set up, did you not read his post? it would not work like that, hence i gave him a solution, im not bothered with all the big boost stuff my car makes plenty of power at 6psi

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Sorry, having now read his post properly, your absolutely right to correct him. My appologies.

series_one_rst

oh ok. i was under the impressions the amal valve supplied air pressure at certain revs from the compressor to the acutator closing the waste gate. so with the valve between turbo and actuator i thought if it was open the rod adjustment would govern the boost then as the air pressure is bled off that would open the waste gate lowering boost?? basically substituting the ecu controlled amal valve with a manual option.

now i am confused!! ha!

chaffe

lol, the atuator is connected to the compressor ALL the time, when the amal/bleed valve opens it bleeds off some of this control air, effectivly letting the compressor overboost. the actuator always works at the same pressure, its just weather you give it the pressure or not that controlls the boost. bleeding control air off is one way of tricking it

series_one_rst

right so for example the turbos on the trucks I work on have a single pipe from compressor to actuator. so as soon as a certain pressure is met the waste gate is open. governing a specific pressure. surely if the actuator doesn't get this signal it will stay shut then when the air pressure is allowed to the actuator it will operate the wastegate there fore dropping boost??

works in my head I suppose. :0)

big_wig_074

youre thinking the wrong way around,the valve being shut means all the exhaust gasses are going through the turbo,making it spin faster and faster and faster,increasing boost,then the valve is opened,and some of the gasses bypass the turbo allowing it to settle in speed

series_one_rst

that's pretty much what I said. compressor pressure reaches at point which sends a pressure signal to the actuator opening the wastegate. letting the wheel slow down etc. what I'm saying is if there's no signal to operate the actuator it will remain closed. ie; full boost. when it recieves the pressure signal it opens the waste gate lowering the boost. see what I mean??

big_wig_074

the bleed valve (boost controller,whatever) goes between the 2.it bleeds air so that the wastegate doesnt get the required pressure till later,so it stays closed longer,so the boost gets to a higher level before the wastegate opens,therefore you get a higher peak boost pressure

so,if i understand what youre asking,lol,im tired,been up since 2am!
if theres no bleed valve,the turbo spins quicker and quicker,increasing boost,until the required amount of pressure is fed along the line to the actuator to overcome the spring pressure to open the wastegate,at that point the peak boost pressure has been achieved.
if you fit the bleed valve you delay the process of the spring pressure being overcome,this allows the turbo more time to increase speed and therefore mid range boost.

stevieturbo

Blinkered is an understatement !!!!

Bleed valves work perfectly for many applications, and you wont find a cheaper alternative that offers easily adjustable boost.

They certainly arent perfect for every car, but will work to give very good stable control on a lot.

And to say bleed valves are a nasty bodge. So what are air injectors ? I see them as a total waste of money when there are far cheaper and dare say better alternatives.
I really dont see what air injectors have to offer over a properly controlled 3port solenoid at a fraction of the price.

So what would you say is the best method of boost control ? ( not asking you Stu by the way.....it is directed at Mr bleed valve hater lol )
And your reasons behind it ?

The valves Stu linked are probably quite similar to the Dawes devices bleed valve. Andy Forest used one of those on his Subaru which has ran over 210mph and run a sub 9sec quarter at crazy speeds.
They seem to work just fine for many people.

series_one_rst

I feel ya pain mate, I work permanent nights. 12hr shifts! not good! lol.

think I better go back to the drawing board?

ShiftyOldScoob

iTrader: (3)

genuine question here...probs a daft one

What do air injectors actually do? and what, if any benifit do they have over a bleed valve?

series_one_rst

why does it have this effect stu? is there any way around it or will I have to run permanent 18 psi?

Ste.

chaffe

with the wastegate being set soo soft it can actually be opened by the exaust pressure itself ya

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

I must admit, I havent really played with tuning a car mechanically for over 4 years so probably not up to speed on the latest mechanical tuning products so will have to take your word on it

However, at least its given you another opportunity for an advert

You sell them, but would you fit one on a car you have tuned and guranteed if you had a choice ?




I have already given my reasons if you care to re-read my posts
ECU controlled will always be my prefered way.



FYI.... Yes I am blinkered and will always hate them but this thread is about my opinion's and not pure facts hence the thread topic title.

However, it has thrown up some interesting discussions and alternative opinions !

J1mbo

iTrader: (1)

Compared to what stu, air injectors? Why would they increase power and spool over air injectors for example?