52 grand yb lol
#82
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
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You were calling me a hypocrit when I was being no such thing at all.
Its YOU that is doing what you are accusing me of Mike
You are assuming Im making assumptions rather ironically, but im not
However, to clarify: I too would not pay £53k for this engine and believe (and am entitled to), that I could get the same or better quality by using an alternative supplier. That is MY choice. If you or anyone else wished to go with JG, that is YOUR choice and I am not knocking it. I am just saying I think it is overpriced. We can all pay our money and make our own choices. So please don't resort to attempting to belittle me and my choices / opinions just because they do not suit your own.
It ALWAYS ends up being about you and YOUR assumptions of everyone else, which is just out of order.
I havent assumed you dont know what the costs involved in a custom made arrow crank are, I have made an assumption because YOU said its only 1500 quid, and thats simply not the case, thats an off the shelf YB crank not a custom one.
And as above, you arent actaully answering my questions, for the simple reason that you know that if you do, you will be shown up for what you are! (whatever that is, could be stupid or could be dishonest, im making no assumptions but its observably not a competition engine expert by the looks of it )
Why couldn't you just be pleasant and disagree like Ian and Steve have, it would be so much better for everyone else if the discussion could be kept pleasant?
Last edited by Chip; 26-11-2010 at 12:49 PM.
#83
Caraholic
iTrader: (3)
We don't even know if JG's is a package with support or 'some type' of guarantee( not usual in a race item). If these were costing him 20k to build and selling for 50k I am sure we will see him retiring to Marbella soon lol.
Well mike , get your equivalent spec motor built and let them test it... Am sure if it the same and as reliable all these rallycross champs would rather pay 30k than 50k per motor.... You never know it might turn into a profitable business.... Mile rainbird engineering'
Well mike , get your equivalent spec motor built and let them test it... Am sure if it the same and as reliable all these rallycross champs would rather pay 30k than 50k per motor.... You never know it might turn into a profitable business.... Mile rainbird engineering'
I pay someone else to do this - Chip builds all my engines .
#84
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
Mike is trying to imply that buying from JG is equivalent to buying parts from him and should be priced accordingl, I am merely pointing out why that is NOT the case.
How many cranks do you think JG gets through before he decides to sell one?
Where as Mike just happily sells on anything that his suppliers sell.
There is NOTHING actually wrong with what mike is doing, ebay and forums and the net in general are full of lots of people all doing the same thing, but its NOT comparable to buying in high level competition engine building knowledge and the proven RIGHT parts.
#85
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
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I pay someone else to do this - Chip builds all my engines .
#86
passionford pro
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I work in a similar situation to JG. If a motor I build goes tits up it's not just the cost of the engine it's a full years championship...that they are putting hundreds of thousands into like team,transport,hotels,hospitality and reputation...down the pan. To be able to build and repeat the success of JG is something that most can only 'dream' about. It's not a trackday that you can say 'oh well ' I'll build it again ford donny trackday.
#88
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
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I work in a similar situation to JG. If a motor I build goes tits up it's not just the cost of the engine it's a full years championship...that they are putting hundreds of thousands into like team,transport,hotels,hospitality and reputation...down the pan. To be able to build and repeat the success of JG is something that most can only 'dream' about. It's not a trackday that you can say 'oh well ' I'll build it again ford donny trackday.
Like I mentioned earlier, you are paying an insurance premium when you buy an engine from JG that you arent paying when you buy parts from Mike (or other people like him, nothing wrong with what he is doing just buying and selling bits to make a bit of money)
#89
PassionFord Post Whore!!
iTrader: (2)
It's 'accountabilty' (racking my brains trying to think of the word)
A block of ally I machines recently was over 5k because it has tracabilty certs. I can get the same size block for under 400 from my local metal stockist. That's over 1000 % mark up.
Cost of the industry.
A block of ally I machines recently was over 5k because it has tracabilty certs. I can get the same size block for under 400 from my local metal stockist. That's over 1000 % mark up.
Cost of the industry.
#90
Caraholic
iTrader: (3)
Its not for no reason at all.
Mike is trying to imply that buying from JG is equivalent to buying parts from him and should be priced accordingl, I am merely pointing out why that is NOT the case.
How many cranks do you think JG gets through before he decides to sell one?
Where as Mike just happily sells on anything that his suppliers sell.
There is NOTHING actually wrong with what mike is doing, ebay and forums and the net in general are full of lots of people all doing the same thing, but its NOT comparable to buying in high level competition engine building knowledge and the proven RIGHT parts.
Mike is trying to imply that buying from JG is equivalent to buying parts from him and should be priced accordingl, I am merely pointing out why that is NOT the case.
How many cranks do you think JG gets through before he decides to sell one?
Where as Mike just happily sells on anything that his suppliers sell.
There is NOTHING actually wrong with what mike is doing, ebay and forums and the net in general are full of lots of people all doing the same thing, but its NOT comparable to buying in high level competition engine building knowledge and the proven RIGHT parts.
I DON'T BUILD ENGINES (YOU know that, so why are you talking as if I do ?). THEREFORE MY PRICES ARE NOT BASED ON ME SUPPLYING .
Also, I do NOT sell on "anything" that my suppliers sell . So you are wrong on all counts you have posted above - PLEASE stop stating your assumptions as if they are fact .
Last edited by Mike Rainbird; 26-11-2010 at 12:57 PM.
#93
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
You are mistaken, I have made no assumption
I DON'T BUILD ENGINES . THEREFORE MY PRICES ARE NOT BASED ON ME SUPPLYING .
NOWHERE in this thread have I said or implied that you are capable of building an engine to a decent standard, I dont know of anyone who would believe that to be the case TBH
Also, I do NOT sell on anything that my suppliers sell . So you are wrong on all counts you have posted above - PLEASE stop stating your assumptions as if they are fact .
You'll genuinely have to explain that to me.
Would you like to name something that one of your suppliers are prepared to sell to you that you wouldnt sell to me at a profit if I was looking for one?
#94
passionford pro
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On the whole of it mike you can't build an engine of the spec or reliability to do the job for which the Julian Godfrey one is intended for 30k End of. If you can ' prove ' your point by doing so then I'll be at the front of the queue to congratulate you.
Btw call Harvey and ask what he would charge to build and supply a European, British and Norwegian championship winning rallycross engine
Btw call Harvey and ask what he would charge to build and supply a European, British and Norwegian championship winning rallycross engine
#95
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
On the whole of it mike you can't build an engine of the spec or reliability to do the job for which the Julian Godfrey one is intended for 30k End of. If you can ' prove ' your point by doing so then I'll be at the front of the queue to congratulate you.
Btw call Harvey and ask what he would charge to build and supply a European, British and Norwegian championship winning rallycross engine
Btw call Harvey and ask what he would charge to build and supply a European, British and Norwegian championship winning rallycross engine
#96
Caraholic
iTrader: (3)
Why am I bothering ?
No I am not, I have already STATED that I believe I could get same / better from an alternative engine builder. So have not implied nor stated anything about buying parts from ME (that was YOUR assumption).
I would like to think that he is like me in that respect and once a supplier has proven to be shit, refuses to deal with them . I personally am quite specific with what suppliers I deal with and despite there being profit on many items, I won't sell a product I don't believe in. Also if there is a a product one of my suppliers provides that I don't believe in, I won't sell it.
Is that specific enough for you?
I have LOADS of things I wouldn't sell (well, maybe I would to you ), a few examples off the top of my head being:
The Quaife big-tooth gearkit. Quaife build MANY good parts, but this particular item isn't up to the task of big power - REMOVED from sale.
Castrol RS oil - not a proper fully synthetic, the molecules unwide at high temp (causing the oil to expand and blow out of the breather, thus given excessive consumption), it goes too thick when hot for a high revving YB and shears at high temp loosing most of it's protective properties - REMOVED from sale.
Is that specific enough for you?
I have LOADS of things I wouldn't sell (well, maybe I would to you ), a few examples off the top of my head being:
The Quaife big-tooth gearkit. Quaife build MANY good parts, but this particular item isn't up to the task of big power - REMOVED from sale.
Castrol RS oil - not a proper fully synthetic, the molecules unwide at high temp (causing the oil to expand and blow out of the breather, thus given excessive consumption), it goes too thick when hot for a high revving YB and shears at high temp loosing most of it's protective properties - REMOVED from sale.
#97
Caraholic
iTrader: (3)
On the whole of it mike you can't build an engine of the spec or reliability to do the job for which the Julian Godfrey one is intended for 30k End of. If you can ' prove ' your point by doing so then I'll be at the front of the queue to congratulate you.
Btw call Harvey and ask what he would charge to build and supply a European, British and Norwegian championship winning rallycross engine
Btw call Harvey and ask what he would charge to build and supply a European, British and Norwegian championship winning rallycross engine
One of the last ones he did was to replace a JG engine .......
#98
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Why am I bothering ?
No I am not, I have already STATED that I believe I could get same / better from an alternative engine builder. So have not implied nor stated anything about buying parts from ME (that was YOUR assumption).
I would like to think that he is like me in that respect and once a supplier has proven to be shit, refuses to deal with them . I personally am quite specific with what suppliers I deal with and despite there being profit on many items, I won't sell a product I don't believe in. Also if there is a a product one of my suppliers provides that I don't believe in, I won't sell it.
Is that specific enough for you?
I have LOADS of things I wouldn't sell (well, maybe I would to you ), a few examples off the top of my head being:
The Quaife big-tooth gearkit. Quaife build MANY good parts, but this particular item isn't up to the task of big power - REMOVED from sale.
Castrol RS oil - not a proper fully synthetic, the molecules unwide at high temp (causing the oil to expand and blow out of the breather, thus given excessive consumption), it goes too thick when hot for a high revving YB and shears at high temp loosing most of it's protective properties - REMOVED from sale.
No I am not, I have already STATED that I believe I could get same / better from an alternative engine builder. So have not implied nor stated anything about buying parts from ME (that was YOUR assumption).
I would like to think that he is like me in that respect and once a supplier has proven to be shit, refuses to deal with them . I personally am quite specific with what suppliers I deal with and despite there being profit on many items, I won't sell a product I don't believe in. Also if there is a a product one of my suppliers provides that I don't believe in, I won't sell it.
Is that specific enough for you?
I have LOADS of things I wouldn't sell (well, maybe I would to you ), a few examples off the top of my head being:
The Quaife big-tooth gearkit. Quaife build MANY good parts, but this particular item isn't up to the task of big power - REMOVED from sale.
Castrol RS oil - not a proper fully synthetic, the molecules unwide at high temp (causing the oil to expand and blow out of the breather, thus given excessive consumption), it goes too thick when hot for a high revving YB and shears at high temp loosing most of it's protective properties - REMOVED from sale.
#99
cossie fan (unluckerly)
Thread Starter
Mike,
You are still along way off on your prices, check with Cosworth on new head price, check with Tibuc for the price of their rallycross inlet with all the pipe work and ALS valves.
Your do well to get nimonic exhaust valves, stainless inlet valves, Kauffmann or Schmitthelm springs and retainers for £1k.
The billet dry sump and Auto verdi oil pump also cost alot more.
Steve
You are still along way off on your prices, check with Cosworth on new head price, check with Tibuc for the price of their rallycross inlet with all the pipe work and ALS valves.
Your do well to get nimonic exhaust valves, stainless inlet valves, Kauffmann or Schmitthelm springs and retainers for £1k.
The billet dry sump and Auto verdi oil pump also cost alot more.
Steve
Last edited by ajamesc; 26-11-2010 at 01:31 PM.
#100
cossie fan (unluckerly)
Thread Starter
Pectel SQ6 management £3.5k
Loom £700
Swedish roller barrel inlet plenum £3k
Nikasil wet linered 4x4 block with all machining £2k and oil jets etc
Ten stud kit £350
JG dry sump kit with girdle £4k
Arrow crank £1.5k
Sienz WRC rods £700
CP pistons £650
New head £1.5k
Machining, porting, guides, valves and WRC headgasket £1.8k
Cams, solid lifters and springs £1k
Custom Maram shafted turbo £2k
Primary designs inconnel manifold £2.5k
RS200 Evo wastegate £600
Plating, bearings etc £500
Mapping and fuel £1k
Labour to build engine £1.5k
Probably missed a few things but not £20k worth ?
Loom £700
Swedish roller barrel inlet plenum £3k
Nikasil wet linered 4x4 block with all machining £2k and oil jets etc
Ten stud kit £350
JG dry sump kit with girdle £4k
Arrow crank £1.5k
Sienz WRC rods £700
CP pistons £650
New head £1.5k
Machining, porting, guides, valves and WRC headgasket £1.8k
Cams, solid lifters and springs £1k
Custom Maram shafted turbo £2k
Primary designs inconnel manifold £2.5k
RS200 Evo wastegate £600
Plating, bearings etc £500
Mapping and fuel £1k
Labour to build engine £1.5k
Probably missed a few things but not £20k worth ?
#101
PassionFord Post Troll
iTrader: (8)
Everyone seems to have fallen for a clever bit of cheap marketing by JG.
Anyone who is in the market for that kind of engine is hardly going to purchase it via ebay, they would be fully aware of his company and what it can do, and would deal direct. JG hardly need to reach out to the the normal ebayers for new business.
Companies like this never publish "real" prices for good reason, as they will tailor the cost to what they think the customer has to spend. Two different customers could end up with exactly the same engine, but you can guarantee if they compared bills they would be in for a shock.
By the power of the internet such an engine now has a ball park cost of 52k for ever more, but before the ebay advert I bet anyone other than a previous customer would have struggled to come up with an accurate figure.
If you turned up at the door with a bag of cash I bet you could go home with that engine for a lot more favourable price, and any other future customer can be told, "well as everyone knows these engines are 52k, but I am sure we can do a special deal just for you, but dont tell anyone else".
Its a win win situation - nobody disputes the quality of their work, so anyone who pays the full whack comes away thinking "premium product for a premium price", and anyone who gets it for less think they have had a bargain.
Anyone who is in the market for that kind of engine is hardly going to purchase it via ebay, they would be fully aware of his company and what it can do, and would deal direct. JG hardly need to reach out to the the normal ebayers for new business.
Companies like this never publish "real" prices for good reason, as they will tailor the cost to what they think the customer has to spend. Two different customers could end up with exactly the same engine, but you can guarantee if they compared bills they would be in for a shock.
By the power of the internet such an engine now has a ball park cost of 52k for ever more, but before the ebay advert I bet anyone other than a previous customer would have struggled to come up with an accurate figure.
If you turned up at the door with a bag of cash I bet you could go home with that engine for a lot more favourable price, and any other future customer can be told, "well as everyone knows these engines are 52k, but I am sure we can do a special deal just for you, but dont tell anyone else".
Its a win win situation - nobody disputes the quality of their work, so anyone who pays the full whack comes away thinking "premium product for a premium price", and anyone who gets it for less think they have had a bargain.
#103
Caraholic
iTrader: (3)
Everyone seems to have fallen for a clever bit of cheap marketing by JG.
Anyone who is in the market for that kind of engine is hardly going to purchase it via ebay, they would be fully aware of his company and what it can do, and would deal direct. JG hardly need to reach out to the the normal ebayers for new business.
Companies like this never publish "real" prices for good reason, as they will tailor the cost to what they think the customer has to spend. Two different customers could end up with exactly the same engine, but you can guarantee if they compared bills they would be in for a shock.
By the power of the internet such an engine now has a ball park cost of 52k for ever more, but before the ebay advert I bet anyone other than a previous customer would have struggled to come up with an accurate figure.
If you turned up at the door with a bag of cash I bet you could go home with that engine for a lot more favourable price, and any other future customer can be told, "well as everyone knows these engines are 52k, but I am sure we can do a special deal just for you, but dont tell anyone else".
Its a win win situation - nobody disputes the quality of their work, so anyone who pays the full whack comes away thinking "premium product for a premium price", and anyone who gets it for less think they have had a bargain.
Anyone who is in the market for that kind of engine is hardly going to purchase it via ebay, they would be fully aware of his company and what it can do, and would deal direct. JG hardly need to reach out to the the normal ebayers for new business.
Companies like this never publish "real" prices for good reason, as they will tailor the cost to what they think the customer has to spend. Two different customers could end up with exactly the same engine, but you can guarantee if they compared bills they would be in for a shock.
By the power of the internet such an engine now has a ball park cost of 52k for ever more, but before the ebay advert I bet anyone other than a previous customer would have struggled to come up with an accurate figure.
If you turned up at the door with a bag of cash I bet you could go home with that engine for a lot more favourable price, and any other future customer can be told, "well as everyone knows these engines are 52k, but I am sure we can do a special deal just for you, but dont tell anyone else".
Its a win win situation - nobody disputes the quality of their work, so anyone who pays the full whack comes away thinking "premium product for a premium price", and anyone who gets it for less think they have had a bargain.
#107
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
You know how much for a multiple high level rallycross championship winning engine which was the question you just answered?
Which car was that in then, as I must confess im not aware of any european rallycross championship winning YB that Harvey has ever built for example and would certainly be interested in hearing about one if he has? or is this just what he THINKS might be able to win in the right car, rather than one actually proven to have done so?
Which car was that in then, as I must confess im not aware of any european rallycross championship winning YB that Harvey has ever built for example and would certainly be interested in hearing about one if he has? or is this just what he THINKS might be able to win in the right car, rather than one actually proven to have done so?
#111
Mike, its like buying a house, £320k for a house is a lot of money, I'd imagine you could buy some cheaper bricks cement plaster etc for a third of the price, but I'd rather pay the extra as someone who knows what they are doing has put it together right with the right materials, yes he's charging a premium and I could do it cheaper but that's cos he knows what he's doing and used the right parts!
#112
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
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Road engine and race engine have different requirements, I would say that any road engine capable of winning a high level rallycross event was by definition a bad road engine
#113
Caraholic
iTrader: (3)
You know how much for a multiple high level rallycross championship winning engine which was the question you just answered?
Which car was that in then, as I must confess im not aware of any european rallycross championship winning YB that Harvey has ever built for example and would certainly be interested in hearing about one if he has? or is this just what he THINKS might be able to win in the right car, rather than one actually proven to have done so?
Which car was that in then, as I must confess im not aware of any european rallycross championship winning YB that Harvey has ever built for example and would certainly be interested in hearing about one if he has? or is this just what he THINKS might be able to win in the right car, rather than one actually proven to have done so?
Get on the phone to him and ask - I can't remember, but it was one of the Scandinavian countries. It was about a year ago (might be even longer, you know how time flies ) . Defo after the restrictor regs came in .
#115
Caraholic
iTrader: (3)
I think it would fail to be competitive, on the basis that I doubt its high enough compression ratio to make proper use of the fuels involved in that level of competition, but being in a lower state of tune would no doubt fair it well for finishing at least
Road engine and race engine have different requirements, I would say that any road engine capable of winning a high level rallycross event was by definition a bad road engine
Road engine and race engine have different requirements, I would say that any road engine capable of winning a high level rallycross event was by definition a bad road engine
He didn't say that it would fail to be competitive, he said he thought my engine "wouldn't last a day". The fact that it is lumbered to a 1500kg road shell would somewhat limit it's competiveness.
However, I would be interested in hearing what part of the engine he thinks would be the weak link?
#116
*** Sierra RS Custard ***
iTrader: (3)
Mike, if you read what I said, I was defending your engine in terms of its ability to finnish.
Acedemic though as your engine almost certainly would be allowed to enter in the first place, no restrictor etc
Personally the link I think WOULD fail if your engine was left broadly as it was and then retuned for rallycross would be the turbo as I think your EGT's would be too high on race fuel with your low comp and the amount of antilag it would need to be running etc.
But I dont think that makes it a bad road engine, as I said, different things, I would love your engine if someone gave it to me
Acedemic though as your engine almost certainly would be allowed to enter in the first place, no restrictor etc
Personally the link I think WOULD fail if your engine was left broadly as it was and then retuned for rallycross would be the turbo as I think your EGT's would be too high on race fuel with your low comp and the amount of antilag it would need to be running etc.
But I dont think that makes it a bad road engine, as I said, different things, I would love your engine if someone gave it to me
Last edited by Chip; 26-11-2010 at 02:04 PM.
#117
Caraholic
iTrader: (3)
But if you're so sure, why not start comparing internals with such cars .
#118
cossie fan (unluckerly)
Thread Starter