Sapph handling question..What to do?
15-03-2009, 08:31 PM
#1
Sapph handling question..What to do?
I'm after some opinions, i have a 2wd Sapph, currently on koni's and ahmed springs and a standard rear beam, i really like how the car rides with the current springs and shocks but want to make it handle better, i've got a brand new set of AVO coil overs to go on it but after reading peoples comments that they're horrible on the road, i'm wondering wether to sell them on and put the money towards an adjustable beam?
Or to save the extra for the beam AND put the coil overs on as well?
My car is purely a road car and i've got no intentions of tracking it, will the coil overs ruin the ride?
Any opinions welcome, thanks, Karl
Or to save the extra for the beam AND put the coil overs on as well?
My car is purely a road car and i've got no intentions of tracking it, will the coil overs ruin the ride?
Any opinions welcome, thanks, Karl
15-03-2009, 09:08 PM
#3
PassionFord Post Troll
What are your current geometry settings Karl?
What tyres do you use?
15-03-2009, 10:13 PM
#5
Tyres are godyear f1 215/40 17
Not sure on geometry settings, i was going to check them at work but i found some rot on osr chassis leg which has now been sorted, the beam is off at the moment, which is the reason for asking about adjustable beams.
Thanks, Karl
Not sure on geometry settings, i was going to check them at work but i found some rot on osr chassis leg which has now been sorted, the beam is off at the moment, which is the reason for asking about adjustable beams.
Thanks, Karl
Last edited by Karl 3dr; 15-03-2009 at 10:35 PM.
15-03-2009, 10:33 PM
#7
I've never been in a car with coil overs on so dont know what to expect from them but i really dont want to turn i into a bone shaker!! Used to love that sort of ride when i was 17 but not now, lol.
Cheers mate
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15-03-2009, 10:41 PM
#8
I hear what your saying,I was always one for cutting a few coils off instead of buying a proper suspension kit 
I have tried mine on all settings,some roads are fine some I leave the seat ! ! It all depends on spring ratings too.Personally I cant be arsed with it,I would rather just bolt on and do a few tweaks and not lose any fillings lol.
I have tried mine on all settings,some roads are fine some I leave the seat ! ! It all depends on spring ratings too.Personally I cant be arsed with it,I would rather just bolt on and do a few tweaks and not lose any fillings lol.
15-03-2009, 10:50 PM
#10
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for a road car coilovers will ruin the ride
all my cossy's have always been lowered to death etc
but my current 1 is standard height on ahmed springs
and its honestly the nicest driver i've had
adj rear beam is a lot of money, and worth it if driven extremely hard or on track
but again if its purely a road car then i'd say avoid it
stick with the koni kit, and while the rear beams off maybe fit a set
of poly bushes, or idealy a solid mount kit
realy tightens up the rear end, it is a little harder at the rear that
standard rubber bushes, but nowhere near as bad as coilovers
and plenty good enough for a road car
all my cossy's have always been lowered to death etc
but my current 1 is standard height on ahmed springs
and its honestly the nicest driver i've had
adj rear beam is a lot of money, and worth it if driven extremely hard or on track
but again if its purely a road car then i'd say avoid it
stick with the koni kit, and while the rear beams off maybe fit a set
of poly bushes, or idealy a solid mount kit
realy tightens up the rear end, it is a little harder at the rear that
standard rubber bushes, but nowhere near as bad as coilovers
and plenty good enough for a road car
15-03-2009, 10:50 PM
#11
PassionFord Post Troll
If you want to go round corners faster, switch the F1s to Toyo 888s - that's a cheapish way of generating more mechanical grip.
If you want it to handle differently, I'd start looking into changing the geo by way adj TCAs, Gp A rear beam, shims etc
What don't you like about the handling?
15-03-2009, 11:06 PM
#12
If you want to go round corners faster, switch the F1s to Toyo 888s - that's a cheapish way of generating more mechanical grip.
If you want it to handle differently, I'd start looking into changing the geo by way adj TCAs, Gp A rear beam, shims etc
What don't you like about the handling?
If you want it to handle differently, I'd start looking into changing the geo by way adj TCAs, Gp A rear beam, shims etc
What don't you like about the handling?
Its hard to put my finger on but when pushing hard, especially on bumpy, twisty roads, it tends to understeer a lot and doesnt really give a lot of confidence, maybe down to the rot on the chassis leg, i wont know until its back together, i've got a set of polybushes to go on,
Its great in a straight line at about 400bhp but whats the point of loads of power if the chassis isnt up to it?
I was thinking of adjustable tca's etc as well, but was wondering, are the rear beams worth the money? Do they make that much difference?
Karl
15-03-2009, 11:43 PM
#16
my sapphs a daily driver. but 4x4 T34.63-34 blah blah blah
but the Suspension specs below are perfect for me no complaints
Koni sport adjustable dampers all round.
Ahmed spec Leda springs all round.
Rear Hubs shimmed to correct inherent toe problems under power.
Front and rear alloy strut braces.
Poly bushes on all necessary parts such as TCA's, ARB's ETC.
She STILL drives like a new car.Apart from when bits fall off
Not bad for a 16 year old shonky ford
but the Suspension specs below are perfect for me no complaints
Koni sport adjustable dampers all round.
Ahmed spec Leda springs all round.
Rear Hubs shimmed to correct inherent toe problems under power.
Front and rear alloy strut braces.
Poly bushes on all necessary parts such as TCA's, ARB's ETC.
She STILL drives like a new car.Apart from when bits fall off
Not bad for a 16 year old shonky ford
15-03-2009, 11:59 PM
#18
my sapphs a daily driver. but 4x4 T34.63-34 blah blah blah
but the Suspension specs below are perfect for me no complaints
Koni sport adjustable dampers all round.
Ahmed spec Leda springs all round.
Rear Hubs shimmed to correct inherent toe problems under power.
Front and rear alloy strut braces.
Poly bushes on all necessary parts such as TCA's, ARB's ETC.
She STILL drives like a new car.Apart from when bits fall off
Not bad for a 16 year old shonky ford
but the Suspension specs below are perfect for me no complaints
Koni sport adjustable dampers all round.
Ahmed spec Leda springs all round.
Rear Hubs shimmed to correct inherent toe problems under power.
Front and rear alloy strut braces.
Poly bushes on all necessary parts such as TCA's, ARB's ETC.
She STILL drives like a new car.Apart from when bits fall off
Not bad for a 16 year old shonky ford
Thanks mate!!
16-03-2009, 08:19 AM
#23
PassionFord Post Troll
Thanks for the replies everyone, much appreciated
Its hard to put my finger on but when pushing hard, especially on bumpy, twisty roads, it tends to understeer a lot and doesnt really give a lot of confidence, maybe down to the rot on the chassis leg, i wont know until its back together, i've got a set of polybushes to go on,
Its great in a straight line at about 400bhp but whats the point of loads of power if the chassis isnt up to it?
I was thinking of adjustable tca's etc as well, but was wondering, are the rear beams worth the money? Do they make that much difference?
Karl
Its hard to put my finger on but when pushing hard, especially on bumpy, twisty roads, it tends to understeer a lot and doesnt really give a lot of confidence, maybe down to the rot on the chassis leg, i wont know until its back together, i've got a set of polybushes to go on,
Its great in a straight line at about 400bhp but whats the point of loads of power if the chassis isnt up to it?
I was thinking of adjustable tca's etc as well, but was wondering, are the rear beams worth the money? Do they make that much difference?
Karl
The adj. beam and shims are supposed to help a lot with this trait
Also the Sapphire had different front end set-up to the 3-door to make it less "wriggly" over bumps and have better high speed front end stability in a straight line ( was done for the executive buyers of the time so it would compete with sporty BMWs/Mercs ). You can switch back to the 3-door front end set-up to make it more responsive on turn in.
I think even the 3-door set-up itself was toned down after the car launch as many journalists on the launch complained the car was too sensitive
Originally Posted by 80's Mag article
two steering changes which Ford SVE made in the light of Spanish launch criticisms: first they replaced the inner TCA (Track Control Arm) joints with rubber instead of plastic , and secondly they worked with TRW Cam Gears to remove the rack-and-pinions sensitivity around the dead-ahead position
16-03-2009, 08:50 AM
#24
20K+ Super Poster.
The only "reading" you need to do is how ford were utter cheapskates and produced a shit car in the cossie suspension dept, the engine was a bit better, but later ones better still.
This is what happens from using parts bin stuff.
The major problem with the car is the rear end, the beam might as well be mounted on mounts made of jelly, it is a serious joke.
The fact that it is semi trailing of course means camber change with movement, though they can be made to handle really well.
They need decent beam mounts and especially a diff mount, this makes a world of difference on it's own.
The adjustable beams are imo a rip off for what they are, I use coilovers on the road, but have used ahmed/koni/billies/spax/chassisdynamics/bilstein in the past.
I would say for most people for the road the KONI/Chassis Dynamics set up was best, but I prefer coilovers so you can set rate at what you want so easy, I mean you don't even need to take front strut off car to change the spring on coilover.
How well you want it to handlke depends how much you are prepared to pay.
Polys all round helps enormously, as do decent tyres I wouldn't have F1 on a wheelbarrow myself, they are far better tyres.
tabetha
This is what happens from using parts bin stuff.
The major problem with the car is the rear end, the beam might as well be mounted on mounts made of jelly, it is a serious joke.
The fact that it is semi trailing of course means camber change with movement, though they can be made to handle really well.
They need decent beam mounts and especially a diff mount, this makes a world of difference on it's own.
The adjustable beams are imo a rip off for what they are, I use coilovers on the road, but have used ahmed/koni/billies/spax/chassisdynamics/bilstein in the past.
I would say for most people for the road the KONI/Chassis Dynamics set up was best, but I prefer coilovers so you can set rate at what you want so easy, I mean you don't even need to take front strut off car to change the spring on coilover.
How well you want it to handlke depends how much you are prepared to pay.
Polys all round helps enormously, as do decent tyres I wouldn't have F1 on a wheelbarrow myself, they are far better tyres.
tabetha
16-03-2009, 09:16 AM
#25
The only "reading" you need to do is how ford were utter cheapskates and produced a shit car in the cossie suspension dept, the engine was a bit better, but later ones better still.
This is what happens from using parts bin stuff.
The major problem with the car is the rear end, the beam might as well be mounted on mounts made of jelly, it is a serious joke.
The fact that it is semi trailing of course means camber change with movement, though they can be made to handle really well.
They need decent beam mounts and especially a diff mount, this makes a world of difference on it's own.
The adjustable beams are imo a rip off for what they are, I use coilovers on the road, but have used ahmed/koni/billies/spax/chassisdynamics/bilstein in the past.
I would say for most people for the road the KONI/Chassis Dynamics set up was best, but I prefer coilovers so you can set rate at what you want so easy, I mean you don't even need to take front strut off car to change the spring on coilover.
How well you want it to handlke depends how much you are prepared to pay.
Polys all round helps enormously, as do decent tyres I wouldn't have F1 on a wheelbarrow myself, they are far better tyres.
tabetha
This is what happens from using parts bin stuff.
The major problem with the car is the rear end, the beam might as well be mounted on mounts made of jelly, it is a serious joke.
The fact that it is semi trailing of course means camber change with movement, though they can be made to handle really well.
They need decent beam mounts and especially a diff mount, this makes a world of difference on it's own.
The adjustable beams are imo a rip off for what they are, I use coilovers on the road, but have used ahmed/koni/billies/spax/chassisdynamics/bilstein in the past.
I would say for most people for the road the KONI/Chassis Dynamics set up was best, but I prefer coilovers so you can set rate at what you want so easy, I mean you don't even need to take front strut off car to change the spring on coilover.
How well you want it to handlke depends how much you are prepared to pay.
Polys all round helps enormously, as do decent tyres I wouldn't have F1 on a wheelbarrow myself, they are far better tyres.
tabetha
Yep,
I'll be going for Gaz coilovers as well, I had Goodyear F1s on my last car and would rate them as follows,
Dry - 6/10
Wet 9/10
Snow 0/10 (might as well have ice skates on)
Nice looking tyre though.
16-03-2009, 01:24 PM
#28
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coilovers will be too hard for the road for a person concerned with making the car too harsh. they ARE hard and only people who dont care about a hard ride will cope with them. (like me!) the rear beams on a cossie are badly designed from the start as when the suspension is moving up and down the angle of the tyre contact patch is always changing because the swing arms are not on a straight and horizontal pivot line.
hence when you see saphs,escos' ect. lauching hard the wheels tuck in on top.
from looking at them it seems the adj. rear beams help you make the pivot line a lot straighter helping the contact patch stay the same on full suspension travel.
could anyone correct me/add to that?
hence when you see saphs,escos' ect. lauching hard the wheels tuck in on top.
from looking at them it seems the adj. rear beams help you make the pivot line a lot straighter helping the contact patch stay the same on full suspension travel.
could anyone correct me/add to that?
16-03-2009, 03:06 PM
#29
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The only "reading" you need to do is how ford were utter cheapskates and produced a shit car in the cossie suspension dept, the engine was a bit better, but later ones better still.
This is what happens from using parts bin stuff.
The major problem with the car is the rear end, the beam might as well be mounted on mounts made of jelly, it is a serious joke.
The fact that it is semi trailing of course means camber change with movement, though they can be made to handle really well.
They need decent beam mounts and especially a diff mount, this makes a world of difference on it's own.
The adjustable beams are imo a rip off for what they are, I use coilovers on the road, but have used ahmed/koni/billies/spax/chassisdynamics/bilstein in the past.
I would say for most people for the road the KONI/Chassis Dynamics set up was best, but I prefer coilovers so you can set rate at what you want so easy, I mean you don't even need to take front strut off car to change the spring on coilover.
How well you want it to handlke depends how much you are prepared to pay.
Polys all round helps enormously, as do decent tyres I wouldn't have F1 on a wheelbarrow myself, they are far better tyres.
tabetha
This is what happens from using parts bin stuff.
The major problem with the car is the rear end, the beam might as well be mounted on mounts made of jelly, it is a serious joke.
The fact that it is semi trailing of course means camber change with movement, though they can be made to handle really well.
They need decent beam mounts and especially a diff mount, this makes a world of difference on it's own.
The adjustable beams are imo a rip off for what they are, I use coilovers on the road, but have used ahmed/koni/billies/spax/chassisdynamics/bilstein in the past.
I would say for most people for the road the KONI/Chassis Dynamics set up was best, but I prefer coilovers so you can set rate at what you want so easy, I mean you don't even need to take front strut off car to change the spring on coilover.
How well you want it to handlke depends how much you are prepared to pay.
Polys all round helps enormously, as do decent tyres I wouldn't have F1 on a wheelbarrow myself, they are far better tyres.
tabetha
16-03-2009, 03:11 PM
#30
coilovers will be too hard for the road for a person concerned with making the car too harsh. they ARE hard and only people who dont care about a hard ride will cope with them. (like me!) the rear beams on a cossie are badly designed from the start as when the suspension is moving up and down the angle of the tyre contact patch is always changing because the swing arms are not on a straight and horizontal pivot line.
hence when you see saphs,escos' ect. lauching hard the wheels tuck in on top.
from looking at them it seems the adj. rear beams help you make the pivot line a lot straighter helping the contact patch stay the same on full suspension travel.
could anyone correct me/add to that?
hence when you see saphs,escos' ect. lauching hard the wheels tuck in on top.
from looking at them it seems the adj. rear beams help you make the pivot line a lot straighter helping the contact patch stay the same on full suspension travel.
could anyone correct me/add to that?
.In the same way that Honda has it's VTEC variable valve timing - Ford has it's own version for the rear geomtery
.
16-03-2009, 03:29 PM
#34
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As has been said before, EVERYTHING you do without getting a decent rear beam simply masks the problem, and won't cure the crux of the issue of understeer/snap oversteer due to the appalling rear end geometry..... Yes the rear beam is expensive, but without it everything else is wasted IMHO.
16-03-2009, 03:44 PM
#35
As has been said before, EVERYTHING you do without getting a decent rear beam simply masks the problem, and won't cure the crux of the issue of understeer/snap oversteer due to the appalling rear end geometry..... Yes the rear beam is expensive, but without it everything else is wasted IMHO.
16-03-2009, 06:30 PM
#36
PassionFord Post Whore!!
So which rear beam is best to use on a road car that will possibly see the odd track day?
I have never suffered much understeer in any of my sapphs, I must not push it hard enough, just the odd little bit of wash out now and again. I have never had the confidence in the suspension on any of them to go and throw them into a bend like I do in a fwd car. On the odd occasion I have, the front end slid a bit then the back end tried to snap round too, which is not fun. I have had standard, full Koni and currently Bilstien. The one in my resto thread has Koni up front and 909 Bilstien coilovers on the rear and I have only drove that for a week but remember it as being very responsive and just stuck on the bends. The back end was so predictable if it did step out too, not snappy.
I love playing on the twisties so Id love to know ways to make my Sapph handle better. Straight lines are boring.
I have never suffered much understeer in any of my sapphs, I must not push it hard enough, just the odd little bit of wash out now and again. I have never had the confidence in the suspension on any of them to go and throw them into a bend like I do in a fwd car. On the odd occasion I have, the front end slid a bit then the back end tried to snap round too, which is not fun. I have had standard, full Koni and currently Bilstien. The one in my resto thread has Koni up front and 909 Bilstien coilovers on the rear and I have only drove that for a week but remember it as being very responsive and just stuck on the bends. The back end was so predictable if it did step out too, not snappy.
I love playing on the twisties so Id love to know ways to make my Sapph handle better. Straight lines are boring.
16-03-2009, 08:01 PM
#40
Didnt want to say it but yeah, i agree!! lol
Yeah, spoke to him him a while ago, he had a lot of good ideas, he reckoned the beam was a good idea as well though.
Dont really want to have my standard beam powdercoated, put it on and then have to take back off again to have it modded, i'd rather just bite the bullet and get it done.
Was thinking of a stage 2 beam but would a stage 1 be ok for the road?
Dont really want to have my standard beam powdercoated, put it on and then have to take back off again to have it modded, i'd rather just bite the bullet and get it done.
Was thinking of a stage 2 beam but would a stage 1 be ok for the road?