I joined the blown Cossie head gasket club today
25-08-2008, 06:31 PM
#45
20K+ Super Poster.
No he's never on time.
Mike r, if we use your advice and use std bolts will you pay the bill and provide the labour if it goes wrong, or has a cossie with std headbolts NEVER gone wrong, put it another way from what you say there has NEVER been a ARP equipped car that has worked then ?
Yes I have shit loads more faith in arp than tony, or yourself about fasteners/studs why do you infer something different, I really can't understand the teams etc that use the bad arp stuff can you.
tabetha
Mike r, if we use your advice and use std bolts will you pay the bill and provide the labour if it goes wrong, or has a cossie with std headbolts NEVER gone wrong, put it another way from what you say there has NEVER been a ARP equipped car that has worked then ?
Yes I have shit loads more faith in arp than tony, or yourself about fasteners/studs why do you infer something different, I really can't understand the teams etc that use the bad arp stuff can you.
tabetha
25-08-2008, 07:16 PM
#47
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Mate, I have learnt over the years that even though 99% of the experts use std headbolts or WRC long studs, people still don't listen and use ARP's against the advice given by proffessionals with years of experience.
If they want to ignore the advice let them, it is thier car and thier cash. If they want to take the cheapo nasty option to save a few quid on thousands of pounds worth of engine let them. Personally I always take the safe option and use WRC studs as I can't ever remember hearing of a failure, so the extra £100 over ARP is worth it as £100 wouldn't even cover the cost of the headgasket and top end gasket set....
If they want to ignore the advice let them, it is thier car and thier cash. If they want to take the cheapo nasty option to save a few quid on thousands of pounds worth of engine let them. Personally I always take the safe option and use WRC studs as I can't ever remember hearing of a failure, so the extra £100 over ARP is worth it as £100 wouldn't even cover the cost of the headgasket and top end gasket set....
Last edited by RWD_cossie_wil; 25-08-2008 at 07:17 PM.
28-08-2008, 09:37 AM
#50
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Exactly, you pays your money and you make your own choice, glad someone else has sense, it is up to the individual what they do, if they take advice if they don't it's still thier choice.
A "professional" is only and nothing more than what any one person considers the professional to be.
Again it is individual choice as it is the individuals money, there is enough bollocks on every forum written by "pros" to fill a library on this stuff.
Sorry but I am not a sheep, and if it goes bang I will have to do the work to put it right, though it did spend 3 hours on the rollers with 20 full power runs during that time, and not snap runs either, so it's looking good, but shitty std tps wasn't good!!
tabetha
A "professional" is only and nothing more than what any one person considers the professional to be.
Again it is individual choice as it is the individuals money, there is enough bollocks on every forum written by "pros" to fill a library on this stuff.
Sorry but I am not a sheep, and if it goes bang I will have to do the work to put it right, though it did spend 3 hours on the rollers with 20 full power runs during that time, and not snap runs either, so it's looking good, but shitty std tps wasn't good!!
tabetha
28-08-2008, 04:45 PM
#52
Exactly, you pays your money and you make your own choice, glad someone else has sense, it is up to the individual what they do, if they take advice if they don't it's still thier choice.
A "professional" is only and nothing more than what any one person considers the professional to be.
Again it is individual choice as it is the individuals money, there is enough bollocks on every forum written by "pros" to fill a library on this stuff.
Sorry but I am not a sheep, and if it goes bang I will have to do the work to put it right, though it did spend 3 hours on the rollers with 20 full power runs during that time, and not snap runs either, so it's looking good, but shitty std tps wasn't good!!
tabetha
A "professional" is only and nothing more than what any one person considers the professional to be.
Again it is individual choice as it is the individuals money, there is enough bollocks on every forum written by "pros" to fill a library on this stuff.
Sorry but I am not a sheep, and if it goes bang I will have to do the work to put it right, though it did spend 3 hours on the rollers with 20 full power runs during that time, and not snap runs either, so it's looking good, but shitty std tps wasn't good!!
tabetha
12-10-2008, 07:51 PM
#55
20K+ Super Poster.
It a bit tappy at mo but new tappets, he did well for his first big job on a car, though he was sweating when the head bolt was being drilled, even had Jo(gf) doing the mucky jobs he didn't want to.
tabetha
tabetha
13-10-2008, 11:10 AM
#56
As tabetha said - it's got 16 new tappets in it, so I expect it would be noisy for the first 5 minutes - problem was it didn't run for five minutes, as there was a 'little' fuel related problem after it was running, but 10 minutes of daylight and a 10mm spanner should sort that one out.
All in all I'm well chuffed with it. It really wasn't that hard, and I know its innards better than I know my own!
All in all I'm well chuffed with it. It really wasn't that hard, and I know its innards better than I know my own!
13-10-2008, 01:09 PM
#58
Shizzle My Nizzle
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I just joined the blown Cossie head gasket club 
It's managed 116,000 miles without anything major going wrong, or at least not in the 5 years I've owned it! Ah well, just have to get on and fix it I suppose!
I'd best get my toolkit out:
Going to buy some Viton valve stem seals, and a cam cover gasket. Suppose I'll need a cambelt too.
Will also dig out my spare head gasket and new INA tappets. Other than brute force and ignorance, is there anything else I'll need? Wouldn't mind a hand if anyone's willing
It's managed 116,000 miles without anything major going wrong, or at least not in the 5 years I've owned it! Ah well, just have to get on and fix it I suppose!
I'd best get my toolkit out:
Going to buy some Viton valve stem seals, and a cam cover gasket. Suppose I'll need a cambelt too.
Will also dig out my spare head gasket and new INA tappets. Other than brute force and ignorance, is there anything else I'll need? Wouldn't mind a hand if anyone's willing
13-10-2008, 03:49 PM
#59
20K+ Super Poster.
At least it was less painfull than when I did your pump and filter and got petrol in my eyes, just after slicing my finger open on your jubilee clip.
tabetha
ps got your new battery yet ?
tabetha
ps got your new battery yet ?
13-10-2008, 05:35 PM
#60
DANISH cosworth abuser
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To be honest MIKE and RWD WILL i have used arp´s in mine for the last 7 years on 8 diff engines, all my friends use arp´s (even the 700+bhp sweedish ones) and the only block i broke was with std bolts!
If u install them correctly then there will be NO problems what so ever, so this has NOTHING to do about what the professionels do and what they use.
Sorry for hijacking the thread
good job, and btw, WHAT HAVE U DONE TO THAT HEADGASKET??????
If u install them correctly then there will be NO problems what so ever, so this has NOTHING to do about what the professionels do and what they use.
Sorry for hijacking the thread
good job, and btw, WHAT HAVE U DONE TO THAT HEADGASKET??????
13-10-2008, 05:59 PM
#61
Me Cossie Runs Atlast!!!!
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Well done
Im going to be using ARP head studs on my next engine, regardless of people who have had problems, others havent, the difference, some people put them in right!!!
Well done again
Im going to be using ARP head studs on my next engine, regardless of people who have had problems, others havent, the difference, some people put them in right!!!
Well done again
14-10-2008, 02:57 PM
#64
I agree with Mike on the arp head bolts do not use them
My opinion is based on the many engines I have had to rebuild mikes I assume is based on the many engines Harvey has had to rebuild.
believe whom you wish it's your engine the experienced advice was free
My opinion is based on the many engines I have had to rebuild mikes I assume is based on the many engines Harvey has had to rebuild.
believe whom you wish it's your engine the experienced advice was free
15-10-2008, 01:15 PM
#65
20K+ Super Poster.
Would this be the same engine of mikes that harvey had already built or another one, that he paid again to have built ?
All the bolt holes were tapped out to clean them, and depth checked, as some are a bit shallow.
Hmm, I wonder who I trust to know more about headbolts ARP or somebody that doesn't work at extremes of motorsport all day long, hard one that, but as you say personal choice.
tabetha
All the bolt holes were tapped out to clean them, and depth checked, as some are a bit shallow.
Hmm, I wonder who I trust to know more about headbolts ARP or somebody that doesn't work at extremes of motorsport all day long, hard one that, but as you say personal choice.
tabetha
15-10-2008, 01:26 PM
#66
Would this be the same engine of mikes that harvey had already built or another one, that he paid again to have built ?
All the bolt holes were tapped out to clean them, and depth checked, as some are a bit shallow.
Hmm, I wonder who I trust to know more about headbolts ARP or somebody that doesn't work at extremes of motorsport all day long, hard one that, but as you say personal choice.
tabetha
All the bolt holes were tapped out to clean them, and depth checked, as some are a bit shallow.
Hmm, I wonder who I trust to know more about headbolts ARP or somebody that doesn't work at extremes of motorsport all day long, hard one that, but as you say personal choice.
tabetha
Harvey works in the extremes of motorsport all day long (the majority of his engines are race / rally engines) and has in the past worked in conjunction with Mountune and Ford.
You may not like the answer, but you will find that EVERY tuner that HAS worked in motorsport with the Cosworth engine will ALL say the same thing about the ARP STUD and NUT kit for this type of engine - it cracks the blocks. It's in these extremes where the limits are found, not basically standard road cars where the throttle is tickled every now and again
. The good thing is that if it is a 200 block, then even if this does happen, you can re-use the block by fitting long studs 
.Tony also has a HUGE motorsport back ground from the late 80s / early 90s, and guess what - he says the same thing
.
15-10-2008, 02:13 PM
#69
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Mike I believe in your experience with ARP's, but it seems kind of weird that ARP's are used n any other car with great success and they crack blocks on Cossies. On Subaru od Mitsubishi you use them just about for anything (not only heads) and they do their jobs much better then standard ones.
15-10-2008, 02:18 PM
#70
They came in an Escort Cosworth Group A top end kit, so presumably standard, yes.Who'd have thought my little Cossie would spark such a big debate?
Last edited by cozmeister; 15-10-2008 at 02:23 PM.
15-10-2008, 02:54 PM
#71
Mike I believe in your experience with ARP's, but it seems kind of weird that ARP's are used n any other car with great success and they crack blocks on Cossies. On Subaru od Mitsubishi you use them just about for anything (not only heads) and they do their jobs much better then standard ones.
.From what I can gather, it is down to their tensile strength being TOO good. The standard bolts are stretch bolts so when the differing thermal expansions of the head and the block pull on the bolts, the standard ones "give" and allow this. The ARPs do not, so they try and pull out causing the cracking. Obviously the long studs go down enough so they aren't pulling on just the top of the block (the weak point). Also, it is only four of the ten that cause an issue, where the block has these particular week points. These are (looking from the front of the engine), the second pair back and the fourth pair back. Obviously other engines don't have these weak points, so although ARP know about bolts etc, they don't know about the inherent shonkiness of the Cosworth blocks
.
15-10-2008, 03:05 PM
#72
20K+ Super Poster.
As I said mike PERSONAL CHOICE, I don't actually care what you're anwser is, unless of course you would personally GAURANTEE that if I used std ones and this happened YOU would pay to sort it out, ARE YOU PREPARED TO PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS ?, or let others get on with THIER choices ?
tabetha
tabetha
15-10-2008, 03:20 PM
#74
As I said mike PERSONAL CHOICE, I don't actually care what you're anwser is, unless of course you would personally GAURANTEE that if I used std ones and this happened YOU would pay to sort it out, ARE YOU PREPARED TO PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS ?, or let others get on with THIER choices ?
tabetha
tabetha
, I'm explaining FULLY the reasons why they should not be used on a Cosworth, it's not slating your beloved ARP stud and nuts (which are good), it's the fact that the Cossie block is so shonky that they shouldn't be used . So all your advice on what to torque them to / clean the holes out etc is IMMATERIAL, as it is not the ARP that is the issue, it's a BLOCK problem . So unless you have miraculously made your block stronger, then fitting ARPs WILL cause an issue (unless you used standard bolts on the four I said).Obviously fitting standard bolts has it's own issue, and this is that the gasket will have a finite life before the head begins to lift due to the constant thermal expansion gradually stretching the bolts so they no longer offer sufficient clamping force. HOWEVER, they will NOT fuck up your block UNLESS incorrectly torqued, so if that is what you want to hear, then yes, standard bolts WON'T crack the block, whereas the ARPs WILL
.Obviously this is more likely to happen on a race engine than a road engine pootled around and you can increase the time before the block cracks with the ARPs by not using it on track or at high speed (which make the expansion disparities greater due to the more heat this produces)
.
15-10-2008, 03:28 PM
#75
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good choice mate standard head bolts and a group A gasket will do 400bhp on a correctly setup road car all day long
by god don't take any advice given from Tabetha cause he will argue everyone else is wrong, even argue black is blue when it clearly black
15-10-2008, 04:27 PM
#78
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The headbolts thing is great proof that I am right to say that it is not enough to know a lot about cars, and be good tuner/technician/mechanic, you must know particular model as well, as there are many things like that. If I didn't know this forum I would surely fit ARP's just like on Evo rallycars....and probably I would need a new block.