AlexF

Hi, This is Stu @ MSD
This topic was originally titled: "Re: FAO People who live map:" by XR-RS and had over 25,000 views but due to a forum issue ive had to split it to fix an error that showed the last page as missing. The last few pages of discussion were lost in the process.. sorry guys

Original starting question:
Reply By PJ:
I would imagine it's self taught to a degree as practice makes perfect but i would imgine there is some form of instruction in the early days, the actual principals behind it are fairly simple but it putting those principles into action, i'm still learning lol



Reply By Alex:
There are courses...

Run by people like Ford for their empolyees... thats always a good way to get into it



Alex

PJay

Alex do you know of any course run for general public, i havn't blown an engine up yet but would like to try with one i don't have to pay for

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Its self taught.

As long as you actually grew up with Carburettors and advance bob weights, and were into tuning cars too, you will actually have learnt the concepts FAR FAR easier than you would if you grew up with EFI.

The mapping aspect simply meant we had to buy the tools to do the job and learn how to use the software. The principles havent changed, just the way we achieve the same end result.

B19-TRB

kept practcing til the cars stopped goin pop!

GINGA

Mappers what would you consider would be the best realisticly priced gauges etc for the home mapper? eg egt/afr gauge and det cans?

PJay

Det Cans.........
http://www.sealey.co.uk/PLPageBuilde...productid=8675

EscortWRC

At the minimum, you'll need a good wideband lambda sensor and something to convert the output to a useful figure (either lambda or AFR)

Then you have to know what AFR's are safe at what level of boost/load and where to start with ignition timing for load/rpm.

It is not as easy as it sounds and if you don't have anyone helping you learn....it could get expensive very quickly

AlexF

No they arnt open to the public as they typically involve the manufacturers software...

remember cosst stuff is all ever-so all hat and aftermarket stuff is SOOOOO basic by compairision its just not true. Thats what makes me larf when people go on and on about OMEX or Emerald and saying how its MILES better than anything Ford baesed... How many maps in an OMEX, how many in the ford EEC???? lol

Alex

PJay

Omex and emerald have there market, they are good for the clubman type user as it were, once you start getting onto better things you start look at pectel, dta. autronic, secs is going to be a contender and even though people think weber marelli is shit its a lot more capable than some, it's just because it's not easily mapped by any old jo that people don't like it.

PJay

AlexF

I'm not in anyway dissing them...

most people just dont know what they are talking about when slating the ford stuff!!!

alex

RichardPON

The most important thing I think Stu ever told me is you have to be able to map for the human factor, as well as mapping towards the perfect compromise.

It's something I'd not considered before, and I'd imagine only comes with YEARS of experience...................

I mean most people with some intelligence could work out how to plot etc, but knowing the results of your actions on the ever variable conditions must take a wealth of knowledge.........

EscortWRC

Number of maps doesn't make any difference at all.

It is number of parameters and resolution (load points)

By todays standards, the cossie stuff is archaic. But it works, so people continue to use it.

PJay

even resolution isn't THAT important say between 14 OR 16 load sites as long as the ECU software does a good job of interpolation

AlexF

number of map and cross referanceing ability is very important IMO...

but can webber-meralli... christ I can't spell tonight!

alex

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I get the feeling you know someone inside Ford whos given you an insight then Alex?
Ive said it a few times and il say it again, Ford EEC is one of, if not possibly THE most sophisticated management system in the world today. Its slagged off by peeps whom dont understand it, and cannot make it do what they want it to do. If anything, its over complex, it does things i cant imagine it has any business being able to do..lol No 1 or 2 person's in the world will ever understand it properly. Impressive.


Im impressed that you actually listen to me mate, i really am Im even more impressed by the way you polished my words, which i imagine, on our Friday evening "put the world to rights" telephone convo was more along the lines of:


"The problem is Rich, it wont be driven by individuals like ourselves, people with brains, and mechanical intelect, no, its going to be driven by a clueless twat with only one foot whom cannot afford to change its oil so is kinda chuffed that it leaks so at least it's getting topped up with fresh as and when he can afford to do without playboy magazine!!

We can but live in hope, that this same tw@ doesnt believe his Jack of all trades but master of none mate, who tells him in the pub tonight that happy shopper 66p per litre unleaded petrol, is in fact top notch japanese spec super unleaded with 107ron and 105mon simply rebadged for marketing purposes!! "

Or summat along those lines?

EscortWRC

But the finer the resolution, the better you can dial it in. It will take more time, but will ultimately be better than calculations

RichardPON

Yeah, I think it was something like that Stu

PJay

PMSL @ Stu

EscortWRC, granted yes BUT if there was an ecu which was favourable due to many features but had 2 less load sites that wouldn't make me not use it as oposed to one with more load sites

AlexF

I might of Stu, might have done a little calibration work myself... sadly only one RS has an EEC5 and even then its petrol not diesel... and of course not the same ECU anyway! Latest ecu's use far more points than omex anyway... and theres anout 500 indivudal maps, then theres the cross reference tables LOL. There are people that understand them, they are very very clever people thou!

It wont be long before auto-mapping becomes utterly necessary... so that'll be ford and all the other OEMs ordering multiple cray arrays pmsl!

There are people that understand them, they are very very clever people thou!

you dont need infinate load sites.... you just need them in the right places

Alex

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

dont forget rpm sites.. just as important as load..

Youd laugh at marelli.... let me see if i can find you summat amusing

PJay

you said that twice lol very good info though, keep it coming

EscortWRC

I'm just pointing out that there are such things as 'intake resonance' and that if they happen to fall between 2 load points, you are likely to get a flat spot if that particular load/rpm site has to be interpolated rather than programmed.

Very much the exception rather than the rule...

However, when going for the last 1% of performance, you can't afford to omit stuff like that or the engine may go POP and you are back to square one.

AlexF

Your absolutly right Matt...

PJay... can you tell I'm tired and trying to make this stuff make sence ?? LOL!

alex

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Couldnt agree more, and ive come across cases of exactly that where we hit an rpm/load site and the fuel is absolutely MILES Away from where id expect it to be.

In fact, ive seen it some 150% away from any neighbouring load/rpm site so it was impossible to get correct as the ecu's resolution didnt allow it

Interpolation "IMO" is only acceptable for an engine that is nowhere near its performance potential and therefore rather "flat, lazy and safe" if that makes any sense at all?

PJay

Yes, lol, going to bed in a minute myself early night for once, the candle only burns at both ends for so long lol

SapphyMike

i wish i'd abide by that!

PJay

I'm still up though lol

SapphyMike

unlike my missus' lazy hamster lol

M Brian

top post this!

ive picked up quite a bit from this!!

wasnt aware that omex and the like werent technically as good as the ford system. that is intriguing.

just raises a few more questions...
people with FRSTs changing A to cossie management, B to omex
as both of these are fairly common conversions - but why??

well the weber one is better is in fully sequential and the other options with add on boards and stuff but is it really worthwhile?

oh and noticed PON seems to have a way with words!! very tactful!!

chewy

Well I was the mate XR-RS was talking about this to and I must say cheers lads question answered even though at the start of the replies I thought it was going no where

Cheers for the replies I didn't expect so many

chewy

BTT cause I wanna know some more

PJay

What dya wanna know?

M Brian

whats techincally up with omex for example would do me.
and is the FRST EEC4 or what have you any good in OFAC mode on a personal note.

and from that --- it it like the matrix film with the green lines of code when live mapping or what have you - are codes jumping at you left right and centre? and out of all the text and codes you just see a lambda curve or something lol

just a bit more detail on what actually you have to do to do mapping, Im gonna by the dave walker emerald book I think just ot get an overview - im never going to be able to map or have a major interest in it - but id just like to know what exactly goes on (but in laymans terms) lol

PJay

Well recomended, i've got it, gives a good basic idea of what happens and how to map and comes with free software which is tottally wank but will give you a very basic insight into how the load points are used and how you use load v's rpm to create a map

XR-RS

informative but to be honest i got lost pretty quickly,lol

im still having trouble with burning cd's on my pc never mind this.

the conversation between me and chewy started after a phonecall i made to try and get a crank and flywheel lightened and balanced. i dunno how many on here are from the north east but theres absolutely nothing up here. when i asked about the lightening and balancing i was told theres nowhere up here that will do it and to pack them up and send them down south to be done.

to be fair theres a place called R&P Woods,a rolling road and hes supposed to be very good at what he does.hes the only one i know of though and has about a month waiting list.

so itl be a trip to blackpool for us when our cars are in a fit state to be chipped

P.S lads,dont tell chewy too much or he'l have his commodore 64 wired up in the car trying his hand at mapping

Bri.

PJay

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

What exactly do you want to know about mapping Melv?

Im happy to help but dont wanna start harping on about some bollox and send you to sleep cos you didnt wanna know it :'(

I can even do pictures.. just ask me an actual question.

EG:
What does a chip look like when you extrtact it from the eprom onto the pc?

How do you know what part of that load of garbage is a map?

What equiptment do ya use for monitoring fuel?

Etc Etc Etc..

I need to be led otherwise il be off on a tangent

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

PJay

All of the above and an essay please stu lol

chewy

I didn't have a particluar question in my head but what you said there would be very interesting Stu.

What does it look like on the screen and how the fook do you know what is what ?

I'm not a technical person and I know nowt about it but I would just like for one, to see what you see on the screen when you're mapping something, and two what happens when you live map a car is the onwer driving it as you map it ? Might have asked a daft question there but as I said I know nowt about it and would like to know a tiny bit so I know what goes on.