Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

I just happened to have popped into the loft to sort some stuff out and noticed that we have a reasonably serious leak around where the Chimney passes through the roof. My first thought was that there was a problem with the lead-flashing. It has been raining solid here for 2 days at least now, so, its taken a bit of a hammering.

Despite the rain, I really had to get up there for a look and the flashing looks in reasonably good condition. However, where the tiles come down and meet the chimney, there is some felt-like material under there that overlaps the lead that is in quite bad condition, so I assume it is this that is leaking. What is this stuff? It's not normal roof felt, I assume I can buy it from B&Q and re-new it myself?

Where the roof comes down from the ridge tiles and eventually meets the chimney, there is a small flat 'ledge' (about 5-6 inches wide) created there and the water is laying on that and seeping through the 'felt'. I reckon it's just a case of pushing 4 or 5 tiles back and tucking the new felt under the bit above it. Then I presume it needs to be stuck down before pulling the tiles back down.

Any help/guidance appreciated.

Charlie Chalk

iTrader: (1)

I used to do a bit of roofing 6 years back but my memory is a bit vauge!

Im assuming you'd need something like this?

http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/164025?...9bQPNXrg%3D%3D


http://www.ruberoid.co.uk/index.php?page=146



Oh and btw..


Normally found outside, and on top

Charlie Chalk

iTrader: (1)

this is what you want!



http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/240007?...9bQPNXrg%3D%3D

kl-mortiss

yes im a roofer sounds like your stack needs re flashing but i live in bristol but i will recommend you get proper one not some one who does abit now and again our a bob the builder should cost around Ł600 all in

rigwrecker

there should be lead the whole way round the chimney if the tiles are sitting over the lead correctly there should be no leaks but if there is water
trapped or sitting anywhere that aint good that means the flashings aint doin there job.the felt is usually under the lead anyway so summit aint right

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

Surely what you say about the Lead always being over the felt is only true if it is lower in height? Water travels down, so any water above the lead must not be able to get under it? Therefore the strip of felt I have that overlaps the lead is correct? I should have taken a pic while I was up there.

I have some pics of what it looks like from inside....

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Always getting roof leaks at my mums - poxy slate roofs!

Her roof is OLD, and the slates are always moving or getting blown off in high wind, and then we just have a gap - as there's no insulation or anything under it! Wooden beams with slate on top of em and thats it!

I'm guessing, that if yours is leaking then it's a slate out of place, cos with ours, the slates keep the water off, no matter how much it rains, so long as one isn't out of place (or missing) and not the insulation or whatever....

Turboboy67

What you want is a plumber to do the leadwork correctly, the water is leaking around the back gutter. what you've probably had is a roofer do the leadwork wrong like alot of them do unfortunately

But saying that there are some decent roofers around who do a good leadwork job and don't rely on mastic

Should cost no more than Ł600 to re-new all the lead which is the worst case scenario.

Cheers

garyrs

hi bud iam a roofer, i am unsure abou what your saying about the water building up on the felt , if you could get some pics of the flashing both sides and the back gutter ,showing the tiles on the back of the chimly too could probly tell you what it is, as for the price i think 600 quid is expensive ,it would take no more than 1 days work max for 1 guy and a nipper, say 200 labour and 200 in lead n bitts , would also depend on how high your house is, as some wouldnt want to do it off a ladder,
gary

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

Though this doesn't totally apply to me, this picture and statement should show the kind of set-up I have......



"Whenever the width of a chimney located along the slope of a roof is more than 24 in., a cricket (also called a saddle) should be installed at the intersection of the chimney's high side and the roof. The cricket prevents debris, snow and ice from piling up behind the chimney--a condition that can cause rain or melting snow to back up under the shingles and leak into the house. The cricket also deflects water running down the roof around the chimney.

The cricket's slope should be the same as that of the roof. If the cricket is large and exposed to view, it should be covered with the same shingles as those on the rest of the roof. A small cricket can be covered with metal. The joints between the cricket and chimney, and the cricket and roof, should be flashed."

Now, I don't think that I need a 'Cricket', but the description about water backing up under the shingles sounds like what I have. The flashing that comes down onto the part where the cricket is shown in that pic is fine, but leaves essentially a small flat area on the high-side of the chimney and there is some felt that comes down and overlaps the lead slightly which is in really bad condition and I think it is this that is allowing water through.

The chimney needs repointing too, it is red brick, with crumbly mortar and not in the best of condition, but it doesn't look to be the cause of water getting in.

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

Send the missus up there.

My motto - Why have a dog and bark yourself!!

(I'm not calling your missus a dog BTW, incase this get's taken the wrong way!!)

dojj

iTrader: (3)

those pics look like the felt underneath has been sagging for a while
if you are going to disturb anything make sure you get the job done proeprly otehrwise it seems that the felt is just waiting for a bit more wieght on it before it comes crashing throgh

you may also want to be looking at that centre support beam and it's bowed in the middle where no one has put any screws throgh it into the wall

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

Thanks dojj. Yes, I though the same about that support beam, I guess that could have caused a 'dish' effect which may have not helped the water run off the lead flashing above.

I will get up there tomorrow and push the tiles back and take some more pics.

It's still raining here, but nowhere near as bad. It's one of those jobs that needs doing when the weather is a bit nicer, so that I feel like making a better job of it.

Turboboy67

If your chimney has "crumbley motar" then it could well be part of the problem, The illustration you have is for a shingle roof ( wooden tile) but the basic lead flashing is correct. With the sub standard pointing and also the wind factor over the weekend it has exposed the weakness' in your chimney. Looking at your pictures you have had a fair bit of water penitration

I would say its mainly down to the direction of the wind blowing the water up under the lead. All the timberwork looks good and fairly new and I would assume the lead is fairly new also. In my experiance (21 years) I would say that the lead has been installed incorrectly, rather than anything else.

Cheers

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

OK, I braved the elements and the slippery tiles and got up there to see what I am faced with. I maintain my original line of thought in that although the lead isn't perfect, it seems to be all there. However, you can now see the flat 'ledge' that I spoke of and the piece of tatty felt that overlaps it. The pics are taken with some of the tiles pushed back......







Shown here is where I think the water is going. I might be wrong, but it does seem logical......





Thoughts??

If I do replace this rectangular section of felt, of course I need to tuck it under the bit above it, but where it comes down onto the lead, does it need to be bonded or sealed there to stop the water seeping under it?

Lee Reynolds

Christian Thatr looks BODGED mate! That looks like Flashbanding and not lead flashing....a quick fix way of repairing a leak from a cowboy!!!

You need a plumber or roofer to do new flashings mate!

Regarding your felt. felt on a roof should NEVER be wet unless there is a problem with the tiles/flashings. Felt is theres as a backup......

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

Whats the difference between Flashbanding and Flashing??

The roof isn't that old (maybe 10 years), the leadwork would have been done at that time.

Lee Reynolds

Flashbanding is like foil on felt...it is bitumen based...lead is as you know plyable metal...

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

That is categorically Lead. I can't really see the issue with the lead. Sorry if I am missing the point. How would a roofer do it differently?

Give or take a little, it doesn't look that much different in essence to the diagram above.

Where the tiles on the high-side of the Chimney end and the water runs off onto the lead, what would be any different there if I paid someone else to come and re-do it?

What would piss me off is if I pay out Ł600 or whatever and just end up with a new version of what I already have, but not actually really any different. Of course it will be water-tight, but mine might just need a proper repair. Maybe not, but I aren't going to just chuck the money away without being sure.

Lee Reynolds

Ah right the pictures look more like flashbanding christain!

Its hard to tell from pics mate. Take a watering can up while beccy videos the leak in the loft...

Lee Reynolds

Does the flat lead at the rear of cimney go back and then rise up with the roof???

dojj

iTrader: (3)

why are the tiles cut back so far away from the chimney then?
they should be closer and then the pile of crap and rubble that you havbe in the valley wouldn't be building up
or it might be time to do the cricket thing

either wya, thats a bodge of the highest degree, it's terrible

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

But once you take the manky piece of Felt away, I can't see what would be done any different?

You can see from the line of tiles that are still in place that they finish about 3" or so from the Chimney. If they were any closer, the water would run onto the Chimney itself.

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

None of the pictures show the tiles in place along the Chimney. They have been pulled back to show that bit of felt.

garyrs

hi . i should have said , that b4 you take the pics you need to make sure that the back gutter of the chimly is clear of rubbish, this is so you can see a hole in the lead, or anny damage also a picture of the sides of the chimly close up maybe one each side as it leaves the back gutter and one showing the side flashing, a little tip is dont tread on the tiles you can slide a tile up,then miss a few then slide one up, this will act like a temp ladder and will be much safer for getting up and down if you cant slide a tile up then i will probly have a nail in the top holding it ,try the tile above or below ,
an alternative to repair is a product called aquapol , this will fix a leak in lead and is very efective, we have used on many roof,lead and gutter leaks without 1 comeback in about 2 years, gary

Mr.worth

iTrader: (1)

I think I know the answer to the leak mate,right above the lead where the sand and cement has fallen out from the bricks on the chimney,the lead flashing/top cover flashing only goes into the chimney by and inch max so the water will be tracking in behind beacause theres no mortor to stop it!a quick fix would be seal all lead and perps above this with some proper lead mastic

maxrs16

the chimney its self looks like it could do with a bit of pointing up the lead looks like its got no mortar in it and from in side it also looks like its leaking on the right side although the felt looks tatty this shouldn't be the problem as if the roof is done correctly the water shouldn't come in contact with it

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

garyrs - I wanted to leave it as-is to show what had happened. Tomorrow, if I decide to have a go at repairing it, I will clear the crap away and take some more pics.

Mr.worth - I think I can see what you mean. There is no doubt that the Chimney needs re-pointing, so that's another thing on the list!!

kl-mortiss

as said before your stack needs all new lead work welded is the best metherd as that is what i do but not many people can lead burn best bet is to get a few qouts of your local roofing company as it s not something you can just crack on with your self though many do try

Lee Reynolds

Stack needs pointing for sure, might not be leak but needs doing. Still check where the lead goes back on to roof as it looks to me like water is backtracking there..

Mr.worth

iTrader: (1)

If you do renew the lead scrap the old stuff its getting good money ,I get 650 per ton which is a bonus every month I bet if you look in that perp with the mortor missing you can see where the lead ends and ill put money on it going in and down behing the lead back gutter if only I was closer id sort it for ya.

Turboboy67

You can see buy your pictures of the inside of the roof that its not leaked like this before or has been leaking for very long, there would be lots of water marks and the timber may of even started to rot if it had been leaking for a while. The first thing I would do is rake out all the loose motar from the chimney and re-point with sand and cement (about 1 part cement to 4 parts sand), Let this go off for a couple of days then if you can get a hose pipe and really soak the chimney, if it still leaks (which I don't think it will) then your lead will need to be replaced.

As I have said before the strong winds over the weekend were I think the real reason for your water leak. The edges on the backgutter under the tiles should be doubled over to stop water just blowing over the top of it. Has your backgutter got its edges folded over? if not they need to be done to avoid this happening again.

Finally if the leadwork around the chimney is only 10 years old there is no way it will need replacing, leadwork should last longer than the chimney if installed correctly.

Hope this very long winded reply helps

Cheers

garyrs

i agree with your repair advice, but water has deff bn in there before, the is white water marks on the chimly pics from inside , i do think the roof is older than 10 years but as said the lead should last a lot longer than that , unless a squirrel has had a nibble...

Turboboy67

Agreed, after having another look at the first pictures it has leaked before,
Also the chimney has no lead trays in it, there should be 2
which again doesn't help. Pointing is definately suspect, also there are cracks in the chimney as well.
Apart from that it looks fine

Cheers

dojj

iTrader: (3)

just realised you pulled the tiles back

but how come there is so much debris sitting underneath?
other than the pointing, clearing that out might make a difference, but then again, it might dislodge soemthing else
but i think this cloging of the channel is causing the water to back up underneath the tiles as mentioned which is causing the leak further back

THE RADMAN

iTrader: (2)

the rear apron should go up at least 6-8" under the tiles,check that its long enough,also check for pin holes or cracks in it,that step flashing does look like flashband though?

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

The debris is mostly the bits of felt that have broken off and lumps of moss. It's a reasonably nice day today, so will go clean it all up and take some more pics.

Thanks for your advice so far.......

Christian and Beccy

iTrader: (14)

Right, I have been up there and cleared all the mess. I pushed all the surrounding tiles back and swept all the crap out. I think the leak was one or both of 2 possibilities.

Everything has dried out now so is much easier to work with. I know that this is the first time this has leaked like this because I am often in the loft so would have spotted it much sooner.

Anyway, I agree that the leadwork isn't great. It doesn't go far enough up under the tiles, if you are saying that it should do so by 6-8". I am half tempted to go and buy some lead and do that bit as it doesn't look hard to sort. I don't want to get really involved, but don't see the point in totally starting again. This isn't a permanent fixture, one day when we convert the loft this will most probably all need to be re-done then anyway. although this won't be for several years.

However, I found a reasonably large slit in the lead, probably about an inch long right in the channel where the water runs off, so I have sealed this with Silicone. There was also a much smaller hole the other side, so I have sealed this too.

Also, it is not hard to see the inadequacy of the pointing. There is alot of cement missing just above the lead. So, this afternoons job is to try and make that better. I think someone has attempted to repoint the chimney quite badly so I have taken all the loose stuff out.