Dannn

I am sure my dad learnt many things in the army - but none of it was worth a fook when he came out. And no he did not fook about even though he was force in there, he got on with it and did very well from what I can gather. Also don't be silly fooking about in the army when he was in there was not option, if you did you got the shit beaten out of you!!LOL

Tangodeltasierra3

I want to use a train to get home from a late night out, my last train from Leeds is 10.15pm, it has 2 carriages at peak hours, 1 at other times, i also travel bye train to London for football if i can get a cheap day return, no way am i paying Ł70 plus return, also there are that many confusing price plans and cross companies it's a total mess.

diesel2000

Dont get me wrong, I wasnt having a dig, just im told that if you REALLY want to learn a trade while in the forces then there are plenty of opportunities for you to do so. But, as I was never in the forces I can only listen to the experienced guys on 40 grand a year driving Petrol Tankers that I work with who learned their skills while in the army.

Tangodeltasierra3

The pits cant re open they capped all the shafts off, most of em are now industrial estates with subsidised office blocks on or wank factorys producing shit like hot water bottles. Theres 60 years of coal reserves under our local pit with a 2 bit japanese factory sat on top of it, oh yes all the locals were promised jobs etc when it opened, i know fuk all who work there As for my dad, retired and on the scrap heap at 50, so how much did 15 years dole etc cost for 150000 men.

Dannn

Don't forget my old man was looking for work back in the mid eighties (or before) so oppurtunities may have different then. Also I am not sure on the general views of employers recruiting ex army etc. Not sure if he had an HGV licence, pretty sure he had a tank licence which of course is very useful!!LOL

I don't actually have anything to do with him else I would ask him about it all. Like I said in a previous post I don't I like him but I do respect the way he pulled himself out of the shit and ended up with quite an impressive job from nothing in a short period of time (5 years). I remember things being properly shit when he was out of work but I never heard him ever moan or blame anyone etc either back then or later on in life.

diesel2000

The dole point is similar to the one i made regarding the SHipyards earlier. People dont realise that most good men want to work and dont want, or get any pride from claiming benefits.

diesel2000

Again, its not a dig, but the drivers im talking about are mainly in their mid 50's and were serving throughout the 80's.

Jim Galbally

please try and see beyond the short term and local implications of things.

the economy is now better off FACT

there are more, better paying, better skilled jobs in the country FACT

that benefits FAR more people, in FAR more ways.

it's the governments JOB to do things that benefit the country.

therefore even with hindsight, the CORRECT decision was made, and it did pay off.

a lot of people lost jobs yes.

in the long run, FAR more people benefited from this, including myself.



as for privitisation, yes i can accept, that some private companies are making profits at the expense of the service, and that DOES annoy me, but i'm confident that the alternative would be FAR worse. the unfortunate fact is that a good section of society are lazy, and with no incentive, they'll settle happily in their public sector custy job and never acheive anything

it's the ONLY reason i beleive outsourcing works. it's not that the job cant be done cheaper if you do it yourself, its that if you pay someone else to do it, they'll WANT to do a good job of it.

It's Czech Mate

Rover is a great example of what happens when the wanker unions ended up running a business

Privatisation was and is still the best way for 90% of industry, once the corruption is removed.........ie people taking backhanders etc....and therein lies the fundamentals of politics. Abuse of power for personal gain

Dannn

Here is short write up on what Maggie allegedly did for the UK written by an american of all people, but its a quick easy read:

http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_b...0405170929.asp

diesel2000

To be honest I think this is a no win thread as its obvious that not everyone is going to agree and it would be a pity to see it get into a 'Ill See You At The Shows' thread as it has had many genuine and valid points, along with some very blinkered opinions.

I do think that it would be very interesting to hear how old everyone is that has posted as it would give some credibility (or indeed remove credibility) from the comments we have all made. Personally I am 30, and I accept that I do only see the bad that the woman did to my town, my family and my friends that is why most of my replies have been around the effect it had on me.

I will never agree that Thatcher was good for this country as I have already said, I am blinkered by the situation I found myself in at a very young age. BUT, I do respect peoples opinions, but at the same time I despise people telling me my family, or 99% of families in my area were happy to sit back and accept benefits. You just have to read the argument myself and Damn had on page one to get a feel of where I was left during the Thatcher era.

Im proud, VERY proud to be from the City I am from, and although the closure of the Shipyards ultimately drove my parents apart I am still proud of what they achieved during these hard times. I very rarely went without the things I wanted thanks to my Dads willingness to earn a good wage by going above and beyond peoples expectations and his willingness to work where the money was, whichever country that was at the time.

I would hate this to turn into a North v South debate as I have many good friends in the South, but I believe that as a rule of thumb, ALL Governments have a very strong South bias which really needs to be addressed as soon as possible.

Tangodeltasierra3

Diesel dont worry, cause when she does go think of the almighty piss up were gunna have North of Derbyshire - get the ale in

Redkop

Diesel, can you tell me what the difference is between accepting benefits once the shipyards/mines were closed down compared to accepting wages which were heavily subsidised by the Government? People will have tunnel vision on this if it affected them, but surely if they looked at the wider picture they must have seen how these heavily subsidised companies were a massive drain on the economy.

The UK was known as the "sick man of Europe" in the '70s. Yet after Thatcher's radical reforms, the UK emerged from the '80s as one of the most successful economies in modern Europe and yes, unemployment was high but it did eventually come down after the initial job losses and radical labour market reforms.

Whatever people think of Thatcher, you have to admit she saved the British economy from the stagnation and decline of the '70s.

Dannn

Imagine paying those levels of income tax!!!

I wonder if some those inflated taxes were used to subsidise the wages in some industries!!

Dannn

Almost forget there was some extra to pay:

It's Czech Mate

I'm a 30 year old accountant with a degree in economics

Jim Galbally

i'm noly 23 years old, but work for an outsourcing firm dealing mainly with local and central government, and used to work for the NHS, so do have some perspective on the public/private sector divide

AlexF

with endless union lead strikes - do you need to wonder?

Rhys

I done a fair bit of studying in economics, though find it terrible borning the basics of economics.... Though all learning a lot about political reforms and systems etc.


I think the main grudge that as Lee said about Thatcher in the mining areas is the way she done it! Destroyed vast communities it was just jobs but Communities, to which i think some people commenting on hear really dont know about Yes reforms had to be done and for that im grreatful but, they way it was done to the mining communities Its a tough one. A decision which would never be popular no matter what course of action was taken. imo.

Oh and as for wanting the pits back..... You will find the communities who lost them dont want them back. They didnt love the job Just a job which was supporting the communitiy. IMO they would find it hard to find people willing to work down the mines now if they re opened

Dannn

I bet plenty of immigrants would line up to do it !

AlexF

absolutly

again it a classic example of the lazy Brit!

There are plenty of jobs - else why would the polish (for example) come here?

It seems most people seem unwilling to work below at a level at which they percieve they are entitiled to!

Alex

timrud

Lee, I'm from your neck of the woods, but yet I totally disagree with you! Take your blinkers off, please.

When the mines were opened, why were they opened? Ask yorself this. They were opened for the entrepeneurs who invested in them to make money.

Now ask yourself why they shut? Well it was because the unions were forcing the cost of labour up and up. That offset against cheaper imported coal.

Now if you were a businessman with common sense, and you saw your market was been flooded with cheap forigen competition, and there was no way you could compete without running at a loss, what would you do? You would shut up shop!

Simple so far.

Thatcher saw this was going to happen, so tried to rebuff the trade unionists, to keep labour costs down, and keep the pits open. But the miners were greedy, the forigen influx continued, the end result being the certain closure.

Now the mines were NOT run as a charity, so why the hell should they keep them open?

If I was a miner, I'd of had more than half an eye on what was going to happen, and would of planned for the future. Learnt a new trade, or whatever. Before everybody was rushing for the jobs that were out there.

It seems to me your blaming Thatcher for the situation the miners found themselves in. Shouldn't they try and help themselves before blaming others and asking for there help.

She tried to help them, by rebuffing the unions. But actually got critisied for it! How mad is that.

FAct is, it might of been under Thatchers regieme the pits shut, but it was world economic forces, not her that did it. How can you not see that?????

Rhys

Deffintley be fillied by immigrants. What i also mean is the skill is mainly gone and the ex miner will have relocated into other industries.. I would be intrested to know if they could open them back up efficentley...

Alex i totally agree what your saying, but i think half of these people are just lasy bastards that wont do anything. Plus lets face it if you could get a job that isnt mining most people would take it, its not the nicest of jobs Would have to pay me shit loads to do it, however im hoping i can find work in another industry

AlexF

Timrud has a point....

remember in this day and age its everyone elses fault but your own!

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Fabulous topic. Not a single BTTT / pointless post by anyone...

GARETH T

im up for going into the mines, they was on a cracking rate of pay for face work

Dannn

Very well written!!

I would be very interested in seeing how the thatcher haters can responsed to that.

Also I read that some people do not like taking benefits. Now surely if your being subsidised by the goverment for work you are doing you are in fact receiving a benefit. Why is that OK and why should the peoples taxes be used for such a thing ?

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Impressive angle, i learnt something today.

GARETH T

sounds great in theory,,, but sadly in the welsh valleys, they was NO other jobs about! honestly, the valleys was there for the mines and nothing else!!

Redkop

Same question I asked of Diesel just before your 1st thread this morning Dan.

timrud

Cheers guys!

I can see where the anti-thatcherites are coming from, but they seem to be blinded/biased by there own situation or involvment.

If they step back and look at the way bigger picture, hopefully they can see where I'm coming from?

Imagine if the miners had there way. The Government would of subsidised wages beyond belief, at a cost to the country (and at a sacrafice of other public expenditure, or an addition to the PSBR), then we would of had millions of tonnesof coal, which the nationalised power stations were FORCED to buy, at a greater cost. This put power prices up, then the cost of living rises, everybody wants more wages, and then we have big time inflation. Not good!

We WOULD be in a mess then.

Dannn

timrud

Gareth, I understand what your saying.

But you could learn a trade at night surely?

I do appreciate it must be an awful situation to be in.

GARETH T

but thats the thing,,, there was NO other trade around!
the company i work for got moved to south wales BECAUSE the mines was closing, so i work with alot of ex miners!

at the time of the mining peak, there was no other industry (not connected to the mines, because of cause the docks and shipping was) for about 30 miles radius

you gotta feel sorry for whole communities that was whipped out! and now look at the valleys, in general they are a shithole!

timrud

Yeah, I know areas round here that are like that, and there are other industries round here too

One of my best mates has a 1500 acre farm in Donny, and a pit and town was built right round his land back in the day. Now its a mega dump. On the plus side they burn loads of cars out on his land, so thats a nice earner off the scrap

Did they get any funding towards relocatng away from the area? That would of been a good idea.

silver

Actually, the miners just wanted a level playing field as the polish government were subsidising their coal and shipping it over here.

Put it this way, if you were the government and had 150000 men working paying tax into your coffers every week, say Ł50 a man for his paye. then you decide that you will not subsidise him and close him down, a nationalised industry. Pay them all redundancy money and then get them all on benefits, how much did that cost?

So how can paying all those men off, be good for the economy? Instead of taking in Ł50 a week per man (tax), they had to pay it out in benefits. The difference to the government was millions every week.

The poles are still subsidising shipbuilding to the detrement of british yards to this day.

I was never a fan of the bitch as she hammered Scotland and gave us the poll tax a year before England.

But she wouldn't take any shit from Brussels or the Yanks.

timrud

I have got an economic reply for that, with some things to back it up, but I haven't the time to type it out now!

Just hang fire!

Lee Reynolds

your right there rhys. Barnsley still has a massive seam of coal beneath it whcih could have been mined for another 100 years...but we certainley wouldnt want to do it now. Times have changed up here and the mines have gone, not forgotten but not wanted back either.
And yes it was how they did it thats bad. Like Jim says, better economy and all that but at a VERY VERY high price for places like ours...not for places like where Jim lives so its ok for Jim and others to think it was a good thing...as i said before not on your doorstep situation.

Ive seen a lot of comments slagging unions on here too and the strikes but yet im sure i can see names on here doing so who supported the firemen when they went on strike for more pay

How that work then? Firemen strike for more pay and put peoples life at risk and people support them
The miners strike for pay and to save their jobs/livelihoods/communities, risk no lives, and get slagged off

WTF

Lee Reynolds

No your in sheffield, you werent affected by the mines closing in barnsley you have no right to comment an the situation just because you were next door.

Lee Reynolds

Correct, hence why Timrud HAS NO IDEA what hes on about. It all looks good in that well written reply that the schoolbooks have taught him but real facts are this, Barnsley was a MINING town. IF there were plenty of other jobs and trades to do they would have done them rather than risk their lives going miles under the earth for poor pay getting black and breathing in fooking coal dust.

When they closed there were no jobs for them as that was the main job to have in Barnsley. Why is that so hard to understand? Oh yes, cos its not how it looks in books or on paper when you STUDY them

All these opinions from people that have ''studied' the situation make me laugh...go and bollox with that shit. You can only comment if you have been/lived in the situation...

another thing that makes me laugh is this subsidising wages and it costing the government to keep men in jobs...

Hmm, right. So, how much do you think it has cost to close the mines, pay the miners off, redevelop the mines, pay dole to all other people whos jobs were lost(haulage companies, train drivers, signalmen, coal merchants, equipment manufacturers etc) ??????????????

Try a figure above billions you might be in the region