Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Just a quick one...

Bought me some nice speakers, and they are "bi-wireable"

Basically, WTF does this mean? Eventually they will be run off an AV amp, and be the front stereo speakers, each speaker getting 100/150watts. But where the amp will have a pos and neg for the left and a pos and neg for the right, the speakers have two pos's and two neg's.

How do you wire em up, and do you need special speaker wire/terminals to do it?

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Found a pic of them with the rear connections showing;

BlueSmoke

I know about bi-sexuality.... that was my ex bird.

bud-weis

i presume it's to run them at different ohms,like DVC subs which are wired either in series or parallel

this may help,but most likely won't
http://www.diamondaudio.com/products...iring%20BW.pdf

orion_crazy_carl

iTrader: (3)

its basicly so u can run units on seperate channels,normally one bass unit and tweeter and the other just a bass unit,most leave as it is now,but can be easier to set up perfect,but being half decent missions,shoudn't have a problem ne ways.

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Bud - thats doesn't help

Carl - that does a bit, but how do I wire em up as they are? So that both the cones and the tweet work off a single channel? As you can see each pair of terminals have a metal plate attached joining em. Am I right in thinking that all I do is connect the pos wire from the amp to the metal plate of the post terminals on the speaker and the same thing with the neg wire?

So I need special "bi-wireable" cable for this or special terminals?

Rick

It allows you to run 2 sets of cables to the speakers, the idea is there is less resistance and you can get more power to the speakers. It's a nice idea as the cables don't have to be too thick. You can if you like just bridge the two connectios (red to red, black to black).

Andy_R

iTrader: (3)

Wire similar to the following is what your after.

www.richersounds.com

biglee

ok so bi-wire is for splitting the feeds to the speaker, it has nothing to do with ohms,power,channels,

what it does it to take the loading off of the compression driver(tweeter) cables so you will get as near perfect repoduction, so in effect your main driver uses more current to drive it...and your compression driver uses very little and has is more likely to sound alot better if it has its own wires to draw off insted of one that has to drive a big cone....hope that makes sense, its all in the name of quality,

rite, all you need is 2 sets of quality speaker cable per speaker unit, i would suggest QED 79 strand, is a good buget starter,

conect the 2 sets to your speakers so you have a + - to the tweeter and a +- to the main driver,

if your hi-fi amp has 2 sets of speaker outputs then use them both, ie speakers A on the left channel will drive your main driver and speakers B on the left channel will drive your tweeter, in effect giving them more seperation,

if your hi-fi amp doesnt have 2 sets of left and right then you simply join the cables together at the amp end, so you still have 2 wires to each speaker so the efect is the same,

if you try the bridgeing connectors then try the 2 wire thing you will be amazed at the difference, your top end extention is not there with the bridge, it all of a sudden comes alive when you bi-wire, i have tri-wire on my tannoys and i would never ever go back to single wire speakers,,,

hope i have helped you out a tad.....

Lee.

orion_crazy_carl

iTrader: (3)

TBH i couldn't hear enuff of a diffrent to sacrifice 2 of my 4 channals on my amp,so just left em be!think unless u are really picky,u wont really notice

biglee

some ppl cant mate, i am an audio engineer, sound engineer, or whatever you want to call it.... and i can hear a difference, im sure THRUSH will as he has done the same thing aswell,

i guess my ears are a tad critical tho....lol

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Right, so lets go hypothetical.

My hifi has a L + R output. L has a + and - and right has a + and - on it.

On the speaker, there are 2x + and 2x -

All I have is 4 length's of speaker cable (two lots of twin cable)

What do I connect to what? Do I connect one end to the + and - of the Left output and the other end to the two metal plates on the back of the speaker or what?

biglee

ok mate, twist the ends of 2 sets of cables together and put them in your amp terminals then wire the other ends to the speaker terminals, being carefull all + and - are round the correct way...

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Lee - I get that bit, but which of the two + do I want to connect, and which of the two - do I want to connect to? Or doesn't it matter?

Ps - does it show I haven't worked with setting up speakers for a good while?

biglee

[+]join--------------2 wires----------------------wire to the 2 + on the spkr
left
[- ]join--------------2 wires----------------------wire to the 2 - on the spkr

(amp)

[+]same as above
right
[- ]


lol.....do you get it ..

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Here, like this - the end of the + wire goes to which of the two + on the speaker? And the end of the - wire goes to which of the two - on the speaker?

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Lol, I get that, but for the time being I will be using 2 wires PER SPEAKER, not 2 wires PER AMP TERMINAL

As in, each speaker will have one of these to play with;

biglee

ok so at your amp end.....twist them together

biglee

ok so just join the 2 reds together and the 2 blacks togeher on your speaker, then send your cable to them....simple...just wont sound as good....

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Lee - reds are joined by this metal plate - so does that mean I can just attach + cable to EITHER of the red terminals?

I understand they won't sound as good like that, but this is only so I can try em out on my not so great living room hifi (a not so new Technics) so I can check they work okay and give them a full 24hr run in.....

biglee

YES YES YES ....

biglee

and as for the not so new technics, i use a 1989 power amp that is an audiophile techincs, the older technics stuff sounds miles better imo..lol

SS1

iTrader: (3)

http://www.richersounds.com/productl...KERESSENTIALS2

if you have gold input output both sides

http://www.richersounds.com/showprod...E-4MMBANANA-GD

if not DONT BUY THEM waste of space

THE link you want pdf file there

http://www.richersounds.com/informat...tips_bi-wiring

N-JOY

i bought my Mordaunt-Short speakers from the above there shops are sooooo cool i could spend all day in there

Eagle

iTrader: (2)

to do it correctly you should use an active crossover running 2 amps per speaker

although most audiphiles will argue that the more electronics the sound has to travel through will have a negative effect the sound, use an amp with no tone controls etc


might be of help

http://www.soundstage.com/synergize/synergize031998.htm

also
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/4/6100.html

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Me too. Pre Power combo i bought a great few years ago that still sounds excellent.

frog

biglee, this makes sense if you have top of the range hi-fi gear.

The overall chain is only as solid as its weakest link, and imo, unless thrush has spent Ł1000's on his separates, bi-wired speaker cables are far from being the weakest link at the moment
The only benefit I can see there is that the thicker overall cabling will be more able to carry big current, but again, this is only really applicable at ear splitting listening levels.

Are going to be talking about gold plated directional 13 amp fuses next

Disabled Account

OK, some good advice above

My views on bi-wiring:

Most loudspeakers available today do not sound better when bi-wired.
The bi-wire option was a marketing led "fad" of the late eighties, when it was discovered that some badly designed crossovers (the x-overs fitted within the cabinet) could be dramatically improved by "splitting" them into TWO independant sections - a high freq (tweeter) section, and a low freq (bass/mid) section. When that was done, the loudspeaker could be re-launched as a "revised" model with the 4 rear terminals fitted, and yes, when bi-wired it did sound better - suddenly, everybody (magazine reviewers in particular) said WOW split x=over & bi-wire is the way to go!

So the compitition had to do likewise - even if their product did not benifit at all from being bi-wired. If they did'nt revise their crossovers for bi-wire use the consumer would view their product as inferior.

Nowadays most loudspeaker designers know that the demo in the shop/home (i.e. the first time the potential customer will hear the product) will only use single wire set (not bi-wire) so they take great care to produce crossovers that sound good without bi-wiring

............Some pics of two EXTREMES in a few mins.................

Disabled Account

PIC 1:

A loudspeaker designed in 1972 that is still in production today.

From 1972 to 1988 there was no biwire option. From 1988 onwards it HAD to have a b-wire option for pure marketing reasone only! However, it is well known that this model of loudspeaker sounds best when NOT bi-wired, and in fact very few owners will ever bother to bi-wire it:



PICS 2, 3 & 4:

It's worth noting that most expensive loudspeakers (over Ł 5 K) do not feature the bi-wire option.

Wilson Audio (USA) make Hi-Fi loudspeakers from Ł 8 K a pair up to Ł 92 K a pair......NONE are bi-wireable:

Wilson Audio "Tiny Tots":





Wilson Audio "Puppy's":

frog

Doug Excellent advice as per usual
I personally can't any electrical reason why bi-wiring would be any better, increasing the cable size which is a direct result of bi-wiring would improve matters on high current draws however

I bet that if anyone halved the cable size (i.e. two smaller cables) when bi-wiring you would be pushed to actually hear any difference.

Bi-amping maybe, but that's a difference kettle of fish.

Now, how about those gold plated directional fuses

Joris_FRST

I think biwiring will "cheat" the crossovers as it has a certain capacity and resistance in the wire, but not enough to make a difference on anything decent.

Eagle

iTrader: (2)

in short .. dont bother its a total waste of time.

there will not be any real noticable difference... just use a good quality speaker cable...

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Thanks all - and nice one Doug But Ł92k? Are you having a fooking laff?!?! Who in their right mind would pay that!?!?!?!?!

Gonna rig em up to my Technics (Lee, by not-so-new, I mean it's about 10yrs old (or so) but it's not a top range audiophile system - just a "grouped" set of matching seperates, more akin to a midi system really. RRP was only about Ł300 way back when) Sounds nice tho, and I am pretty sure it's an 8ohm output, so provided thats right, just gonna hook em up to that to test em out, and give em a run in.....

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

K, so all wired up and playing

Incredibly clear sound - crystal infact - but not as much bass as I remember/expected, tho this might have a fair bit to do with the room and the angle they are in......

Tried a couple of CD's, radio and TV (digital tv box, as DVD not hooked up to hifi) and they are all really clear, but not as much punch from the LF as I expected... Hopefully will be able to change this in the right room/set up, and with a decent amp where I can sort low pass frequencies and high pass frequencies etc....

Eagle

iTrader: (2)

might be worth trying different distances from the walls

Rick

Doug/Frog - good points.

I hate these audiophile types that think they know what they are doing, they come out with some priceless comments. More current carrying capacity is the only real benefit of bi wiring.

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

Feck all room to play with Eagle - my sitting room is laid out in a certain way (not how I would do it, but hey, I ain't paying the mortgage here ) and speaker wire is cut to length and run under the floor boards, so no extra room to move shit about

Here's a little schematic of how it's set out;



Ok, so not wuite to scale But you get the point. The left speaker is about 12" from the wall (not flat, at angle to it) beside chimney breast, and the other speaker is a good few feet from the windows (angle, not flat) and both are rear-firing (from the bass ports I mean, not the cones) into a corner, so this is why I am thinking this might be the cuase of lack of bass.

Bear in mind tho, as said, it's an old-ish Technics low range midi system, so it ain't gonna be hi-fidelity It only has one bass setting - on or off

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Check you havent got the phasing wrong pal.

Eagle

iTrader: (2)

sometimes putting speakers too close or too far away from a wall can have an effect on the overall low frequencies ..

only thing i can find at the moment .. what does it say on the instructions/user guide you never got

just found this ...

Simon

Give them a day or two to bed in before you move them about

Thrush

iTrader: (1)

I did get the instructions and they say EXACTLY whats on that site aswell I know cos I already checked there.... They are running in now - been sat on just under 1/4 volume on the radio for all of the evening, and 2morrow I will up the vol a tad and leave a CD on repeat (rock disc so the speakers get a bit of movement from the kick drums) for the day.

One, as I said is 12" or so from a wall, but it's not flat-facing to it, and the other is a good distance from a "wall" and both have the foam bungs in them. I must admit, the bass went up a lil in vol with them out, but was a bit "loose" sounding, and the bungs helped to tighten it up