ConFusion
11-03-2017, 04:06 AM
#1
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ConFusion
Hi guys,
I am new to this forum and can't find a dedicated section for Fusions, since the Fusion is similar to the Fiestas I thought that I best try here for help.
The car is a 2007 Fusion 1.6 TDCi zetec, it will not crank.
The history of the fault, battery appeared to discharge over night, the AA were called, they battery was replaced, it wouldn't start, so he tried to tow start it, still nothing, the AA then said "immobiliser problem" and towed it to a local garage not a Ford dealership after kindly deleting the codes. Local grease monkey said there is no signal going to the injectors, then shrugging his shoulders asked for the car to be taken away. So, I have taken up the challenge. Firstly, the battery is new and good, the immobiliser light seems to be functioning normally, all three of the pedal box switches have been tested and found good, as has the ignition switch. The engine earth seems to be good. There are no codes stored, but the live data for the fuel rail shows good pressure. I have been searching the net all evening/morning to try and find a wiring diagram for the starting circuit with no luck. Later today I will check all relevant fuses and relays also I will apply battery voltage to the starter just to prove that the starter is good, I suspect it is good because I was told there was no signal to the injectors, so I am guessing the ECU is not asking the engine to start.
My main questions at the moment are:
1) Can the ECU refuse to power the starter if it sees a fault, even though a generic reader said there is no faults?
2) Does the ECU wait to see a signal from the crank sensor before initialising the injectors?
3) Does anyone have the wiring diagrams that I need?
I will report back later with my latest findings, but meanwhile any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Steve.
I am new to this forum and can't find a dedicated section for Fusions, since the Fusion is similar to the Fiestas I thought that I best try here for help.
The car is a 2007 Fusion 1.6 TDCi zetec, it will not crank.
The history of the fault, battery appeared to discharge over night, the AA were called, they battery was replaced, it wouldn't start, so he tried to tow start it, still nothing, the AA then said "immobiliser problem" and towed it to a local garage not a Ford dealership after kindly deleting the codes. Local grease monkey said there is no signal going to the injectors, then shrugging his shoulders asked for the car to be taken away. So, I have taken up the challenge. Firstly, the battery is new and good, the immobiliser light seems to be functioning normally, all three of the pedal box switches have been tested and found good, as has the ignition switch. The engine earth seems to be good. There are no codes stored, but the live data for the fuel rail shows good pressure. I have been searching the net all evening/morning to try and find a wiring diagram for the starting circuit with no luck. Later today I will check all relevant fuses and relays also I will apply battery voltage to the starter just to prove that the starter is good, I suspect it is good because I was told there was no signal to the injectors, so I am guessing the ECU is not asking the engine to start.
My main questions at the moment are:
1) Can the ECU refuse to power the starter if it sees a fault, even though a generic reader said there is no faults?
2) Does the ECU wait to see a signal from the crank sensor before initialising the injectors?
3) Does anyone have the wiring diagrams that I need?
I will report back later with my latest findings, but meanwhile any insight would be greatly appreciated.
Steve.
11-03-2017, 06:53 PM
#3
PassionFord Post Whore!!
How are you going to have fuel pressure if the engine doesn't crank. The injectors won't be told to work without the ecu seeing suitable engine speed when the engine is cranked.
First thing you should have checked is the starter motor is getting told to start when the key is turned, if it isn't find out why or manually power it. If it is been told to turn and all the connections are good then the starter is probably hoofed. You could do with a power probe or a test light or a multimeter.
First thing you should have checked is the starter motor is getting told to start when the key is turned, if it isn't find out why or manually power it. If it is been told to turn and all the connections are good then the starter is probably hoofed. You could do with a power probe or a test light or a multimeter.
12-03-2017, 12:52 AM
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markie,
I am fairly experienced with auto electrics, I often end up with cars that others have given up on. The dealership is the very last port of call, in 30 years I have never had to resort to the money sponges that dealerships are. The reason that I have come here is to hopefully tap into the wealth of information that exists from owners experiences since I am not familiar with Fusions.
studabear,
The reason for not starting at the starter motor was, it was dark o'clock and the car was still on the A frame hooked up to the back of my Landy. So I could only really look at things from inside the car. My reader showed me fuel pressure on the live data setting, I am guessing the fuel rail retained pressure after the AA tried to tow start it, alternatively it is a bad reading, but I will get to that later.
Today I did investigate the starter motor as well as I could, I only have axle stands since I can't drive on to ramps and the starter motor is not in the easiest of places to get to, I did manage to short a spanner across the solenoid terminals, this made the motor spin but obviously it would not engage because the solenoid was not being powered, so I know that my engine earth is good, my positive supply to the starter is good and the armature and brushes are operational. I next looked at the start relay, I tested the relay itself and it is good, I am getting a good 12v+ from the ignition switch to the relay when the key is in the start position, I was grounding my meter on the bodywork to see that. When I probe the relay socket with both probes I would expect to see 12v across the trigger side of the relay when the key is in the start position, but I am only getting 8.6 volts. Since I was at the relays I tried shorting the load side of the relay and the engine turned over, it didn't fire up, but it did prove that the engine isn't seized and that I have compression. The key was in the start position whilst I shorted the relay socket and movement was noted on the rev counter, I am taking this as a sign that the crank sensor is good, although a bad crank sensor wouldn't stop the car from cranking. I shorted the relay a few times as I realised that the first time the clutch pedal was not pressed.
The second time I shorted the relay the starter failed to work, I was a little confused, but thinking about what I have discovered so far and what history I learned when I got the car, I went back under the car and shorted out the solenoid again, again the motor worked, back to the relay and shorting it out cranked the engine once more. So, I now know that main contacts inside the solenoid on the starter motor are not reliable but I can live with that at the moment. What I need to do is find out why I am only getting 8.6 volts on the trigger side of the starter relay. I only have a Fiesta wiring diagram with the same engine to work from, but so far all wire colours and pin numbers are the same, the diagram shows the starter relay ground coming from the PCM.
So, next I removed the battery and tray to find the ground points around the battery and the PCM, I found three very rusty grounding bolts, I am thinking this could be giving the PCM a bad ground and in turn giving the start relay a bad ground. Cleaning the terminals up and refitting the battery has made no difference. One side of me is thinking a bad PCM, because of this 8.6 volts, and possibly the fuel pressure reading. But my reader can communicate with it and I have appropriate movement on the rev counter, this makes my think the PCM can't be totally bad. The next logical step for me I think is to look at the power and ground pins on the PCM as well as checking continuity on the relay ground wire to the PCM. I will also investigate the fuel pressure reading to see if it is legitimate.
I appreciate anyone taking the time to read my ramblings and especially if they give constructive feedback, am I missing something.....etc.
Steve.
I am fairly experienced with auto electrics, I often end up with cars that others have given up on. The dealership is the very last port of call, in 30 years I have never had to resort to the money sponges that dealerships are. The reason that I have come here is to hopefully tap into the wealth of information that exists from owners experiences since I am not familiar with Fusions.
studabear,
The reason for not starting at the starter motor was, it was dark o'clock and the car was still on the A frame hooked up to the back of my Landy. So I could only really look at things from inside the car. My reader showed me fuel pressure on the live data setting, I am guessing the fuel rail retained pressure after the AA tried to tow start it, alternatively it is a bad reading, but I will get to that later.
Today I did investigate the starter motor as well as I could, I only have axle stands since I can't drive on to ramps and the starter motor is not in the easiest of places to get to, I did manage to short a spanner across the solenoid terminals, this made the motor spin but obviously it would not engage because the solenoid was not being powered, so I know that my engine earth is good, my positive supply to the starter is good and the armature and brushes are operational. I next looked at the start relay, I tested the relay itself and it is good, I am getting a good 12v+ from the ignition switch to the relay when the key is in the start position, I was grounding my meter on the bodywork to see that. When I probe the relay socket with both probes I would expect to see 12v across the trigger side of the relay when the key is in the start position, but I am only getting 8.6 volts. Since I was at the relays I tried shorting the load side of the relay and the engine turned over, it didn't fire up, but it did prove that the engine isn't seized and that I have compression. The key was in the start position whilst I shorted the relay socket and movement was noted on the rev counter, I am taking this as a sign that the crank sensor is good, although a bad crank sensor wouldn't stop the car from cranking. I shorted the relay a few times as I realised that the first time the clutch pedal was not pressed.
The second time I shorted the relay the starter failed to work, I was a little confused, but thinking about what I have discovered so far and what history I learned when I got the car, I went back under the car and shorted out the solenoid again, again the motor worked, back to the relay and shorting it out cranked the engine once more. So, I now know that main contacts inside the solenoid on the starter motor are not reliable but I can live with that at the moment. What I need to do is find out why I am only getting 8.6 volts on the trigger side of the starter relay. I only have a Fiesta wiring diagram with the same engine to work from, but so far all wire colours and pin numbers are the same, the diagram shows the starter relay ground coming from the PCM.
So, next I removed the battery and tray to find the ground points around the battery and the PCM, I found three very rusty grounding bolts, I am thinking this could be giving the PCM a bad ground and in turn giving the start relay a bad ground. Cleaning the terminals up and refitting the battery has made no difference. One side of me is thinking a bad PCM, because of this 8.6 volts, and possibly the fuel pressure reading. But my reader can communicate with it and I have appropriate movement on the rev counter, this makes my think the PCM can't be totally bad. The next logical step for me I think is to look at the power and ground pins on the PCM as well as checking continuity on the relay ground wire to the PCM. I will also investigate the fuel pressure reading to see if it is legitimate.
I appreciate anyone taking the time to read my ramblings and especially if they give constructive feedback, am I missing something.....etc.
Steve.