a lot off guys saying APs judder.....

what's the PF brake thing...a lot of guys saying PF is very good...never heard of it...

i dont hear a bad thing about AP on passionford....

are the MLR boys driving like lunatics....or do we drive to slow with our AP stuff....

http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...hreadid=109533

 

I dont think you'll hear anyone on PF slagging them off


they cost so much, no ones going to moan if they're shit!

 

Mine have been bang on - never had a problem better than the standard brembo jobbies

 

that would be stupid then..isnt it...paying a lot of money for brakes which aren't good...(which i still don't believe)

but what are PF brakes then...

 

Do a search on the MLR plenty of people use them on there

 

PF = Performance Friction : http://www.performancefriction.com/


Personally I think AP's are over-rated although thats not to say they are bad brakes, just think a lot of people are blinkered; don't always see what else is available and just automatically go for AP's.

 

tell them if they are so bad you will buy their brakes off them for a hundred quid

 

thanks...one piece calipers...

 

In my opinion the brake judder comes from the Brembo calipers themselves, once warm I get judder, when cold the brakes are fine.

This suggests the brakes discs are fine, but the Brembos have a tendency to overheat and somehow warp. After getting thrashed around the NS (for a few minutes before they started to judder), my discs were showing extremely uneven wear, basically the middle of the disc was shiny and the rest dull. I had thought the pads had broken apart, but upon inspection, everything was fine. Since then there is a creaking noise under braking, suggesting flex in the calipers themselves.

That was enough for me to decide on a new setup - and AP's seemed the logical choice, they also get a lot of good reviews, and many race cars use them.

Just think how many people use AP's - hundreds. Obviously some people will experience problems.

Now how many people run say Movits on their Evo? Under 10 I expect. If one of them was likely to have a problem, would they complain loudly? Maybe not. Even if they did, it's still only one person and their experience, quickly dismissed by the other 9

Be aware that PF only make pads and rotors, and I doubt very much that the products they produce are significantly more advanced than the likes of AP, Pagid, Ferodo or any other brake supplier with a motorsport department.

 

Think my AP's have been Tested to extreme more than most. Numerous standing on the pedal from 200+ mph & mine are not juddering.

 

Brembo r better than AP arents they ? and dont Brembo own AP

Think how many super cars now run brembos in disguise

 

Gary @ APT has AP's on his Evo and they are so good it feels as if your eyes are going to ripped out of their sockets. He has never complained about them on the track either.

 

Have run a set of cp5200's 4 pots and 330mm discs on my RWD sgt 3 sapphire, a lot of my mates run similar set ups, and I don't think anyone has ever had anything apart from 110% performance out of them Mine get hammered every time I drive the car, and have had no probs at all. Pad choice is as ever, critcal though, the green stuff pads they came with were utter wank , a set of frodo ds pads made them much better.

 

I have given my considered opinion .

 

Spyker only use AP....aston martin uses AP's...TVR also...and the Noble i guess also...

i think Brembo and AP are the same when it comes to quality...i guess..

 

Real super cars use Brembo

ie McLaren SLR, MC12, Enzo & Enzo FXX and I think also the Veyron

 

i don't know what you are taking but it sure as hell isn't legal! There is nothing wrong with Brembo calipers.

 

Just to avoid confusion, I run an Evo 5 with the standard setup (Brembos). Quite a few people at the Ring took a look at the brakes, me and StevenRW had the pads out in the morning, and like I say, when cold to warm they are fine - good braking, no judder.

But once warmed up, they start juddering - and not just a little! You cannot hold the wheel straight, and braking power is about halved.

The strange creaking sound was witnessed by many people on the forum, and very slight flex during braking can be felt, which obviously should not happen with 4-pots. A few suggestions were the shims on the back of the pads, or the calipers themselves creaking. It was certainly something that noone had experienced before.

The difference in the face of the front disc is still noticable, I'll take a picture.

Apparently this is a known problem on the V and VI, which is why everyone is looking for a solution to the judder. If you read the MLR post, you'll see that PF themselfes had rotors sent back due to juddering, only to find they were fine.

So, the brake juddering must be coming from elsewhere - in my case I suspect the calipers. I can't see any other part of the system which would cause the problem, only when warm - but if you have any suggestions, I'd be glad to hear them and will investigate further.

 

there is nothing wrong with Brembo calipers... take a look at the discs and then change them for two piece ones with alloy bells and your problem will be gone! If Brembo calipers were the cause of juddering do you think major manufacturers would use them? Think before you type rubbish

 

never had a problem with ap's.and ive just finished the manx,something not many on this sit can also say.

 

i thought the veyron used AP's? sure i saw a caliper on AP's stand at autosport that said bugatti veyron on it...

 

never had a problem with my 6 pots

 

I had the Reyland Ap vauxhall kit on my nova and they were awesoem and NEVER let me down on any trackday or the serious use they got at the ring.

My mate does run 330mm Ap's on his 3 door and it seems to eat brakes on any track day, no idea why as I've been told its very unusual but I know it pisses him off as there Ł350 for a set of rotors which makes track days damn expensive .

Any ideas what could cause them to warp so quick ? and before anyone asks yes he does do a steady warm up lap and cool down lap.

 

He is probably using Performance Friction carbon metallic pads - you can't beat them for stopping power, but they eat discs for breakfast, lunch and dinner . I had the same problem, I went through THREE sets of rear discs to one set of PF pads (and even THEN they were only half worn ). When I fitted the current new discs, I binned the PF pads and fitted DS3000s - no more disc wear .

 

I run with ap's, no problems with mine and the car stops where it didn't before, i never had this "judder" either

C L

 

my AP´s r bang on never had a problem with them

 

You should knock up some two-pieces for the FRS Martin, I think a few people would buy them, me for one, standard setup just aint upto the track and I can't afford APs!

 

So why is the judder only when warm? Surely warped discs would be spotted when cold too? Once warm it is truly terrible. Absolutely undriveable. And why are the pads fine, but the discs showing uneven pad contact after heavy use?

I do know that Mitsubishi/Brembo made revisions for the VI calipers, and then to the VII which again got revised calipers. So they may have been aware of the problem.

Anyway, it's just what I suspect. I never said modern Brembos were bad, I've driven a FRS and they were fine. Brembo own AP anyway, AFAIK.

My Evo is also fine, for day to day driving.

But the thread started due to a discussion about Evo Brembos and if AP's were also prone to judder.

Many people here (Germany) use Porsche 2-piece discs on their Evos, and they are also getting judder.

PF had discs sent back, due to judder, and found no problems with the discs.

I thought about all the options after numerous discussions, and came to the conclusion, that an AP 6-pot setup would be the best way to finally have brakes up to the job. Obviously I may yet experience problems, time will tell.

 

I believ the judder might be down to a change in the Hub temperature,


Mike

Oh mine Judder

 

Or alternatively (as I suggested on the MLR thread ), the pads not fit for purpose and leaving deposits on the discs (which Brent "seems" to be describing reading between the lines).

 

Take a look for yourselves - the disc is smooth there are no grooves radial or axial, just the discoloration.

 

Does Brembo own AP.....????

 

other way round i think?

 

Mike- Its Alpina and he runs Ap discs from you and DS3000's

Just real unlucky I guess

 

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/te...e_papers.shtml

read the warped rotor myth page.

 

LOL@ on-ujah,mate where never gonna be able to see a warped disc by eye,unless its really,really fubar.

 

 

From that info it looks like the discs have developed Cementite over the whole face (the pictures show only one part, but it is like that 360deg), or like Mike said the pads have left deposits all around apart from that first 1cm, which I guess may be the coolest area?

I've had the 'pad imprint' problem before on an A3, you could plainly see it and the high spot was noticable all the time through pedal pulsation, even cold.

I now think what has happened is that the disc warps due to the different properties of the cementite against the normal iron, but on cooling the disc returns to within tolerances. So nothing to do with the Brembo calipers. *awaits 007*

Obviuosly you cant see a warped disc by eye, unless the pad imprint is present, but you can generally feel it by spinning the wheel and listening, or just through driving. My discs are fine when cold, warped when hot - that's why I thought it might be something else causing the problem.

So thanks to the people who contributed, it looks like the problem is solved.

Mike, cancel that order for the AP's, I'm getting some 60 quid special discs

Only joking BTW the order remains on!

 

Brent,
You can clearly see from your photos that that is the pad build up I mention .

However, the other problem with the one piece discs on Evos that hasn't been mentioned is that they get too hot (being unable to dissipate the heat) and kill the wheel bearings. APs are the cure .