Hi all

I have achieved all that I can with a stage 2/3 setup including green injectors, t35 turbo, rs 500 intercooler, fully rebuilt engine, including 200 block, std compression pistons, cleaned up head etc.

All the above is controlled by a Bayhoo stage 2 chip, and boost controllede by blitz controller.

I want to set the car up to use blue injectors, via a live map. Is there anything else I should be doing to support the additional fuel etc? I am thinking about whether I should also do cams, and/ or improved management altogether.

My only constraint is that I want to stick with std compression pistons - not least because I dont want to replace the pistons again, and also because I prefer the driveability of the std compression.

Help!



Help!!

 

stick with Standard cams, they'll be fine for your spec unless you intend to use a bigger turbo.

only possible worry would be head gasket.

L8 ecu would be a good upgrade if you haven't got it too

 

I have changed the head gasket for a cometic multi layer, having killed the group A gasket in less than 10,000 miles! Hah!

To change to a L8 ecu, what would I need - jsut the brain, or other bits as well?

Thanks for your help

JJ

 

To change to a L8 ecu, what would I need - jsut the brain, or other bits as well?

Thanks for your help

JJ[/quote]


also you need to change tps,and swap the 2 outer wires round and get a suitable chip!

standard cams and standard comp CAN get between 380 - 400+bhp

 

That sounds exactly what I am after!

380 - 400 is kind of a holy grail for me! I have a friend with a Supra running about 400 bhp. It is a one trick pony, but it is quite a trick!

Re the chip - that will be changed when I map it for the new injectors. PJ Motorsport I think do a live map service - any experience where to get it?

This is almost sounding like a plan! Meanwhile I will see if I can find an ECU Brain.

JJ

 

YOU are talking about motorsport 400 light blues injectors? L8 ecu seem to be about the Ł200-Ł250 mark atm (which aint too bad)!

where abouts are you from?

 

For the cost difference you may as well go for greys or larger with a live map, that way, if you want more in the future, you dont need to outlay for bigger injectors again

Also, with L8, closed loop is almost a necessity nowadays, giving you up to 34mpg on 1000cc injectors with all the power you could ever want.

 

Thanks for the input both

Hmmm - I like very much the idea of closed loop ecu - apart from anything else, it does somewhat eliminate the need for concern about running too lean.

I had not thought about going to greys - is there no concern on bore wash at low rpm/ low speeds?

Can closed loop lambda be added to any L8? or is this only for the ones which were fitted with cats as standard... Also, does the closed loop use wide band, or narrow band?

So many questions!! Thanks for the help though, exciting times!

Alvyn, I am from deep in the Westcountry - If you see a battlescarred white sapphire cosworth in the Exeter or surrounding area, its probably me!!!!

 

The closed loop will take care of pretty much any injector you like, borewash is a thing of the past, as is poor idling, bad cold running and poor economy. Any L8 can be converted.

http://www.motorsport-developments.c...closedloop.htm

 

Wow!

Impressive system you have come up with there! I have been looking at some after market engine management systems to try to improve the fuelling (eg MoTeC), and have been a little put off by the price!

I am interested in your live mapping. Presuming that you are setting up the closed loop, it would make sense for you guys to map it as well.

I will need to get the bits and pieces for the conversion first.

If I do opt for the greys, but tune them to match the rest of the cars performance, would I need to uprate the fuel pump?

 

[quote="JjCoDeX75"]Wow!

Impressive system you have come up with there! I have been looking at some after market engine management systems to try to improve the fuelling (eg MoTeC), and have been a little put off by the price!

I am interested in your live mapping. Presuming that you are setting up the closed loop, it would make sense for you guys to map it as well.

I will need to get the bits and pieces for the conversion first.

If I do opt for the greys, but tune them to match the rest of the cars performance, would I need to uprate the fuel pump?[/quote]

as said above about the grey route should have at least 1x group a pump 044

 

To be honest, for the price id be fitting some 560s instead as a minimum so you have a little more scope on the fuelling side for more mods.

An 044 and fresh wiring is a necessity at this level IMO.

The level your considering is almost precisely what i ran to the ring on last year (except mine is higher compression), so if your interested you can see my comprehensive fuel consumption report in this topic here: and a seperate uk only consumption report in this one here:

 

would defo get the closed loop set up mate.

i have 1000cc injectors in mine and unles its a gentle crusie on the motorway i get shocking petrol consumption.

how would you work out miles per gallon?
a full tank of petrol is 60 liters, is thee 4 liters in a gallon?
if so thats 15 gallons to a full tank.
dont want to tell you what my average fule consumption is

But boy does it go when you nail it

 

Stu - A fellow ring journeyman!

Also, unless I am very much mistaken, we have the same taste in hotels! Edgar is an absolute star. Every time I go, I need to use his garage to change rear pads (at least once!)

My car managed two trips last year, and is due back in April/ May! (depending on many things, not least of all a duly stamped permit from the wife!)

Also, VERY interested to hear that you are running a high compression setup. I have always believed that this gives better driveability. Any cons that you are aware of?

'rapidcossie' - 1000cc injectors, thats a lot of fuel! I'm not sure that I'll be needing them right now.

Re the rest. I am beginning to get a feel for my shopping list now. To recap:

L8 ECU from 4X4 Cossie
4X4 TPS (Throttle Position Sensor)
Group A Fuel Pump (complete with fresh wiring)
Grey injectors (or possibly 560cc's)
Fitting kit for above said injectors

Then it is a trip to MSD to

Modify ECU to incorporate closed loop lambda af setup
Live Map car (and generally set up properly)

Finally, a brief note on boost. I am advised by Turbo Technics (supplier of my t035 turbo) that the one I purchased is comfortably able to produce a reliable 2bar of boost. Will this be satisfactory for the proposed setup?

Have I forgotten anything?

One final PS - Are ALL 4x4 ECU's L8? and am I right in thinking that the difference is that the L8 ECU's main 'chip' lives on a baby board connected to the principal PCB.

Thanks!

JJ

 

Yeah, Edgars a great bloke, im booked in for our April trip on 13th


Its not very high, just higher than standard, and up to 400bhp, no, efinately no cons at all, as long as you stick to quality high mon fuel.


Sounds fine to me. Fitting kit NOT needed for the larger ones. (55, 72 and 83lbph)

A small wiring change is needed for teh tps to work & Air injectors or aftermarket boost controller would be a bonus if you want a nice solid 30+ in teh midrange.


Wont argue with that one.


Yes, i would normally peak around 34 and then hold 28 as long as teh turbo is able.


Not that i can think of at teh moment.


Correct. Only thing to note is that we need the daughterbaord to be a STANDARD marelli one as the Pectel versions are not suitable for closed loop conversions.

 

Cheers Stu,

A very comprehensive response!

I think it may take some time to gather all the bits and pieces to do the conversion, and will take a back seat to the bodywork which is programmed for march.

Im not sure when we are going to the ring - we were hoping for late april/ early may, but the lads I usually go with want to avoid school holidays, bank holidays and easter. When added to the gp in may, we are on slim pickings for which weekend!

Ref Boost control, I have installed a Blitz SBCi Color. One of the best investments I have ever made - Boost spike is now a thing of the past (as is the amal valve!!!)

Point noted on the Standard daughter board. I will start to scour the second hand ads, and the ebays etc.

One final q - where does one get the larger injectors from? and how much?

cheers

JJ

 

I keep them in stock and will do you a favourable deal. Prices are changing all the time as they get more and more popular in this country so likely best to buy em last.

 

soundz good to me!!

Right - I have much to do, not least of all fix a couple of bits n pieces. When I have a carrier bag full of bits, I will contact you.

Enjoy the ring, and we will compare notes! Last time I was there the French cosworth owners club were there. Nice bunch all round

Thanks again for all the info. Because blackpool is approximately one million miles north, probably best to give me an idea how long it will take to fit chip, injectors, and map the old battle bus!

Cheers

JJ

 

why would you want to eliminate a mid range boost spike?

 

As far as boost spike is concerned, the following is based on my experience with my car. To be honest, this may be more for the lower end specs like my current setup than the higher ones!

With my car as it is, it means that I can run higher sustained boost, because the small spike does not exceed the capabilities of the car.

EG - Stage 2 Boost setup with Bayjhoo chip (pardon spelling) has a built in max boost of 28psi. Lets say you were trying to run 25psi sustained (probably too much to be honest). What would happen is that with the old setup, to get anywhere near 25psi, the spike was going over the 28psi, causing the chip to override, and cut fuelling - result not good.

So in a nutshell, the better the control of the boost spike, the more boost you can run as sustained!

This could be peculiar to my car, but since the boost controller was fitted, it holds boost way better all the way up the revs. Still a small spike, but less tailing boost at the other end!

Soo - less boost on the spike, more boost everywhere else!!!!

Hope this is not horribly misleading.

JJ

 

JjCoDeX75

makes perfect sense in that situation JJ.

however, there are good reasons to have a boost spike, but you need the right hardware and software to make the best of it.

the reason that your chip has a boost limit of 25psi is so that at maximum engine speed your injectors can supply enough fuel. but at half of maximum engine speed, you have twice the length of time available to inject the fuel in, so you could, in theory, run much higher boost levels in the midrange of engine speed to get much more torque.

the same is basically true of the turbo. it will flow enough air at maximum rpm to give a boost pressure of, for example, 25 psi without spinning too fast. but at midrange rpm, it doesn't need to spin so quickly to give the same boost level as the engine is not consuming as much air. so again, from that point of view, a high boost spike in the midrange to give more torque is possible.

obviously there are limitations to how much boost that you can give the engine at any time. things like compression ratio, fuel quality, intercooler efficiency, compressor efficiency etc, etc.

to run a midrange boost spike successfully, you need a form of mapped boost control - boost vs. rpm, and the pneumatic system to handle it (air injectors, correctly jetted amal valve, correct actuator etc, etc).

 

Nicely explained Nick.

 

Interesting, and makes perfect sense!

One of the main reasons that I went for the Blitz is that it has the ability to map boost either against rpm, or speed.

So far, I have been experimenting with speed related boost - less boost in first and second (where lots of boost equals lots of wheel spin), and progressively more as I get further up the gears.

However, I am most interested in the mechanics of the midrange higher boost levels! I had not really given much thought to mapping the boost against RPM. I will play! The SBC has a rather neat dual solenoid design which so far seems to do a pretty good job. (one of the better things to arrive from Japan!). The amal valve has been carefully filed in the garage under "not to be used any time soon!"

My chip currently limits at 28psi, and I try to keep mine to no more than 26 at any time (for fear of leaning off). The mechanics are reasonably sound on the car, but the fuelling could certainly do with improvement!!

Once I have a better all round system (ie bigger injectors, and better control of such injectors), I will look into mapping the boost to the rpm, with a view to higher boost at mid range rev, and backing off at the higher range.

Cheers!

PS - Stu - have now sourced a standard L8 ECU! Let the shopping commence!

 

May i add as a note of caution, that no 803s chip designed for std fuel pressure will supply enough fuel for 26psi at high RPM, so beware.

The std system will have the boost tailing a lot from 5500rpm onwards, so beware of the DSBC upping it where an amal valve could not. Im sure Ahmed will concur with me if you call him.

 

No worries and point noted. When I referred to the 26, I was talking about absolute peak, not sustained running.

The car only achieves 26 very briefly at initial turbo spool-up. After this point, boost holds at around 24 psi. Even with SBCi, it will tail off to about 22psi by high rpm.

Also, had head off about two weeks ago to have a check around, and replace horrible gp A gasket. Glad to report no signs of lean running!

Stu - presuming that I will have installed all I can and keep the car running (items such as lambda sensors, wiring for it ready to be plugged in, group A fuel pump etc etc) how long will you need the car to live map it? Obviously I am happy to fit items such as the chip and the injectors, but that seems a little silly based on the fact that the current ecu wont correctly run them, and I dont want to by an aftermarket chip for an ecu that I intend to change!

Cheers m8

JJ

 

All cleared up on the telephone, just so people dont think i am being ignorant.

 

iv got this problem the boost dropps off at around 5400 ish and ive just got a boost controler to try and sort this out,im running greys etc,will i still have the same probs running lean at higher rpm its running 2 bar boost but im loosing around 80bhp between 5400 ish to 6500

 

Just as a post note - Stu was mega helpful on the phone!

I now have a plan!!

First - Sort out a few niggles on the car before Stu sees it (so he doesn't shout at me! )

Then buy the few bits and pieces that can be easily done 'down south' such as fuel pump and stuff like that

Then take the car to MSD for the final and definitive step (fingers crossed 380-400 BHP reliable)

Hooray for a plan!

escossie666 - dont want to speak for the experts, and I am sure they will respond, but from what I gleaned from speaking to Stu, it is all about the map. If you have the right fuel flow, and the map is telling the car to give the right amount of fuel, it shouldnt lean off! Best thing to do imho is test it with a wide band lambda (proper one) to see if it does or not!

Of course, the experts will tell you all.

JJ

 

just coming back to this point Stu. does that mean that 803's are not capable of supplying enough fuel for 26psi at high rpm, or just that most chips don't put enough in as an amal valve cannot properly control it?

 

Depends on so many factors that affect this, but yes, in general it does indeed.

 

Very interesting thread and exactly the route I will be going next year with mine. Just fitted a 044 pump which i got from a friend for Ł10 as he was just going to sell it with the car!! I better start collecting the rest of the parts now

Stu do you need the car for a week to get the cold running mapped correctly?

 

Stu @ M Developments thanks for the reply stu