New Wideband AFR kit on test....
24-01-2005, 11:04 AM
#1
New Wideband AFR kit on test....
Ive just taken delivery of what i see as one of the most complete and usefull wideband AFR monitoring kits available on the market today for use In car. 
I will be testing it back to back with my £6K+ industry standard test unit to see how it compares and will have a magazine in tow to record the results later on this week 
It features:
Bosch LSU4 wideband sensor
52mm backlit analogue Gauge so will fit in all standard gauge pods
External control unit for ease of installation.
10mins Data Aquisition at 10samples per second (Datalogging)
Accurate from 10:1 - 18:1 AFR
Main usefull feature IMO
Rpm and TPS are monitored and used to control an external item.
Example:
You could set it so that if;
Rpm = >4000
TPS = >60%
AFR = >12:1
Then it earths a wire to Activate NOS.
Obviously in the above example, the NOS would be disabled should the AFR be below 12:1
The wiring possibilities are endless
You could perhaps have something that earths the coil if these conditions are not met, thus building your own AFR dependant RPM limiter to save a meltdown if the tw@ using your car ignores the warning light 
It also features extra analogue inputs that can be displayed on the PC software for datalogging. Common uses of the inputs would be things like boost / TPS / RPM / or perhaps fuel pressure.
Warning lights can alos be configured for various inputs, most usefully though is the fact they can be configured against RPM and AFR so you could ask it to warn you if AFR gets lean at WOT
Heres a couple of pics:
Retail price TBA:
Expect around the £430 mark.
I will be testing it back to back with my £6K+ industry standard test unit to see how it compares and will have a magazine in tow to record the results later on this week It features:
Bosch LSU4 wideband sensor
52mm backlit analogue Gauge so will fit in all standard gauge pods
External control unit for ease of installation.
10mins Data Aquisition at 10samples per second (Datalogging)
Accurate from 10:1 - 18:1 AFR
Main usefull feature IMO
Rpm and TPS are monitored and used to control an external item.
Example:
You could set it so that if;
Rpm = >4000
TPS = >60%
AFR = >12:1
Then it earths a wire to Activate NOS.
Obviously in the above example, the NOS would be disabled should the AFR be below 12:1
The wiring possibilities are endless
You could perhaps have something that earths the coil if these conditions are not met, thus building your own AFR dependant RPM limiter to save a meltdown if the tw@ using your car ignores the warning light It also features extra analogue inputs that can be displayed on the PC software for datalogging. Common uses of the inputs would be things like boost / TPS / RPM / or perhaps fuel pressure.
Warning lights can alos be configured for various inputs, most usefully though is the fact they can be configured against RPM and AFR so you could ask it to warn you if AFR gets lean at WOT
Heres a couple of pics:
Retail price TBA:
Expect around the £430 mark.
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24-01-2005, 12:07 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Spiky
[stupid head on]
whats good ratio and whats bad???
[stupid head off]
whats good ratio and whats bad???
[stupid head off]
Full documantation comes with it to help you along
Originally Posted by cossierich330
Stu? Where does the sender/probe go to anaylse the exhaust gases then?
24-01-2005, 12:12 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Originally Posted by Spiky
[stupid head on]
whats good ratio and whats bad???
[stupid head off]
whats good ratio and whats bad???
[stupid head off]
Full documantation comes with it to help you along
cheers stu.
i'm highly tempted by this as i'll only using the car on track, and it'll get kinda hot
i'll watch the results
24-01-2005, 02:18 PM
#20
Testing the future
doesn't look as good as the techedge unit that has better datalogging facility with more inputs (including thermocouples).
taken from https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=97080
any comment on that stu?
i think that both the bosch LSU4 and NTK L1H1 sensors can be used with most wb controllers, do you know if that's the case with the one you're testing? if so, do you have a recomendation on which sensor to use (bearing in mind that the NTK costs double the Bosch)?
One more general question if i may - does anti-lag damage an O2 sensor? obviously bunging unburnt fuel down the exhaust damages a cat (not to mention the shockwaves), but does it harm the O2 sensor?
taken from https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=97080
just found a comparison of various ones here:
http://www.billwilner.com/mx5fi411/wbo2.html
particularly interesting is this comment:
Quote:
..easy to obtain and inexpensive Bosch LSU4 sensor. The Bosch is a true wideband sensor with 5 wires. We have observed that the response time is about half that of the NTK sensor. Note that this sensor cannot read quite as rich as the NTK and pins at 10.5 AFR.
http://www.billwilner.com/mx5fi411/wbo2.html
particularly interesting is this comment:
Quote:
..easy to obtain and inexpensive Bosch LSU4 sensor. The Bosch is a true wideband sensor with 5 wires. We have observed that the response time is about half that of the NTK sensor. Note that this sensor cannot read quite as rich as the NTK and pins at 10.5 AFR.
i think that both the bosch LSU4 and NTK L1H1 sensors can be used with most wb controllers, do you know if that's the case with the one you're testing? if so, do you have a recomendation on which sensor to use (bearing in mind that the NTK costs double the Bosch)?
One more general question if i may - does anti-lag damage an O2 sensor? obviously bunging unburnt fuel down the exhaust damages a cat (not to mention the shockwaves), but does it harm the O2 sensor?
24-01-2005, 02:45 PM
#22
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DONT mount too close to turbo or it will fook up quickly...and YES anti lag will fuck it up VERY quickly!!!
TBH.... this is just a toy for gauge lovers IMO...for pro use it needs to go on a tube up the tail pipe with no anti lag on and testing to see if your car is gonna melt
TBH.... this is just a toy for gauge lovers IMO...for pro use it needs to go on a tube up the tail pipe with no anti lag on and testing to see if your car is gonna melt
24-01-2005, 02:51 PM
#24
Testing the future
Originally Posted by bosch man
TBH.... this is just a toy for gauge lovers IMO...for pro use it needs to go on a tube up the tail pipe with no anti lag on and testing to see if your car is gonna melt
wtf would you know about pro use?
24-01-2005, 02:55 PM
#25
I would prefer a digital gauge too if im honest, and im told they are looking into producing optional front end units, one of which will be digital
But the fact that it sweeps around being a problem is the same as saying you cant read a fooking boost gauge
On top of teh above, the fact it has a programable warning light means i dont give a toss what it says anyway as a driving aid...
I cant comment really as the 540+vat NTK sensor im using with my ECM unit updates at 5hz so ive not seen a problem with them personally
Also, its a mute point as the unit under discussion is supplied with a Bosch LSU4 so end user chioce is not necessary.
Finally, yes, ALS and unburnt fuel will kill a lambda sensor in very short time.
But the fact that it sweeps around being a problem is the same as saying you cant read a fooking boost gauge
On top of teh above, the fact it has a programable warning light means i dont give a toss what it says anyway as a driving aid...
I cant comment really as the 540+vat NTK sensor im using with my ECM unit updates at 5hz so ive not seen a problem with them personally
Also, its a mute point as the unit under discussion is supplied with a Bosch LSU4 so end user chioce is not necessary.
Finally, yes, ALS and unburnt fuel will kill a lambda sensor in very short time.
24-01-2005, 02:56 PM
#26
Bosch Man,
TBH.... this is just a toy for gauge lovers IMO...for pro use it needs to go on a tube up the tail pipe with no anti lag on and testing to see if your car is gonna melt
TBH.... this is just a toy for gauge lovers IMO...for pro use it needs to go on a tube up the tail pipe with no anti lag on and testing to see if your car is gonna melt
Tail pipe? more accurate then downpipe?
Bloody manufacturers are clueless arent they? Idiots
24-01-2005, 03:03 PM
#27
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
But the fact that it sweeps around being a problem is the same as saying you cant read a fooking boost gauge
for starters my boost gauge reads PSI obv
And the scales are totally different..!!It boosts to 18psi then drops to 15psi (cos of intercooler) VERY little movement on the gauge itself because of scale.. That gauge you put a pic up, with the AFR readings will fluctuate quite abit i assume?? and the scale is quite large..
I doubt any of this makes sense, but Digital IMO would be ALOT better
24-01-2005, 03:25 PM
#31
Testing the future
thanks stu. perhaps in your evaluation of this unit you can see how the LSU4 fares and if it updates regularly enough for a high power engine going through the rev range quickly compared to your reference instrument.
i think an analogue gauge is good as a reference gauge for normal driving to see if something is wildly wrong. a digital is better for tuning, but a lot of the time you will be using the logged data to tune with if you are a diyer as you can't map and drive, and as this unit has either the built in logger or an external 0 -5v output, that is well covered.
perhaps in your evaluation of this unit you can see how the LSU4 fares and if it updates regularly enough for a high power engine going through the rev range quickly compared to your reference instrument.i think an analogue gauge is good as a reference gauge for normal driving to see if something is wildly wrong. a digital is better for tuning, but a lot of the time you will be using the logged data to tune with if you are a diyer as you can't map and drive, and as this unit has either the built in logger or an external 0 -5v output, that is well covered.
24-01-2005, 03:51 PM
#34
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Stu......its a diagnostic tool and should only be used as such....as you recommend closer to the turbo the better and this means the shorter the life of sensor....putting it say in the middle of exhaust is no good...putting it up the tail pipe in a tube is pefect as you are getting accurate readings from flat out runs plus what do you use to test CO?...A probe up the exhaust....unless you got a hole in the exhaust before the tail pipe then my method has to be the best for longevity and equal accuracy.....imo.....and sensors aint cheap to keep replacing!
24-01-2005, 03:57 PM
#35
How can you say Equal Accuracy?? You only need so much as a tiny leak in one of the joints of the exhaust and all your results will be vvank.
A Pipe in the end of the exhaust is fine for many occasions and simple tuning, but when mapping a car we ALWAYS use a Downpipe mounted Sensor.
A Pipe in the end of the exhaust is fine for many occasions and simple tuning, but when mapping a car we ALWAYS use a Downpipe mounted Sensor.
24-01-2005, 04:21 PM
#36
PassionFord Post Whore!!
i use the tech edge one,
only reads probertly in down pipe to mid section, b4 any joints,
in tail pipe dont read accurate at all on idle or cruise, but does on full go, i,ve tried 75mm-20mm tail pieces, 20mm is best, but cant beat in down pipe.
but to close to turbo, will over heat the sensor (over 850 dee C) a nd it will read rich, as i believe why my cossie melted, the sensor was fitted 20mm from 3 bolt flange on down pipe.
only reads probertly in down pipe to mid section, b4 any joints,
in tail pipe dont read accurate at all on idle or cruise, but does on full go, i,ve tried 75mm-20mm tail pieces, 20mm is best, but cant beat in down pipe.
but to close to turbo, will over heat the sensor (over 850 dee C) a nd it will read rich, as i believe why my cossie melted, the sensor was fitted 20mm from 3 bolt flange on down pipe.
24-01-2005, 04:29 PM
#37
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Remember folk the closer to the turbo the richer you will see...another reason to use my method as it shows leaner than it is! 
BUT a good bit of kit from Stuy
But its not for the pro's like me..ROFL
BUT a good bit of kit from Stuy
But its not for the pro's like me..ROFL
24-01-2005, 04:32 PM
#38
Boost Builder
Remember folk the closer to the turbo the richer you will see...another reason to use my method as it shows leaner than it is!
nice to see you like accuracy phil
24-01-2005, 04:40 PM
#39
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nice to see you like accuracy phil
TBH thinking about it.....the closer you are the richer it would show...so really a little further down the downpipe must be best...but it does figure that i am showing leaner...which is a good thing IMO..as i am setting it up richer...and that means safer engine!!!!
24-01-2005, 04:40 PM
#40
Bosch Man,
Stu......its a diagnostic tool
Stu......its a diagnostic tool
Bosch Man,
as you recommend closer to the turbo the better and this means the shorter the life of sensor....
as you recommend closer to the turbo the better and this means the shorter the life of sensor....
Why do the manufacturers fit em there then?
The heat is a good thing in many ways, too cool and they clog up, thats why they have heaters built in to them, to keep em pretty warm when your tootling about. massive EGT's do have an affect, but show me a road car that sustains these temperatures regularly Phil?
The ultimate position is offset 30 degrees from center about 2 feet from the turbine, but it just so happens a cossie couldnt take one there anyway...roflol Most other cars can though
I do know a little about the lifespan of a wideband unit Phil, i pay real stupid money for my sensors due to having the full cal sheet available to type into my ECM headunit like this:
So i make it my business to know how to extend their life and retain accuracy