Caddyshack

I took down some set up details for front and rear when using 6 degree rear beam.

I am interested in the FRONT In this query as the setup says 3mm Toe IN (some say 2mm overall) on front but the gauges I have only have degrees anyone know how this relates as most geo is set up in degrees / minutes???

Caddyshack

Bump up

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

toby I have only ever set them up at 1.5 deg in 3mm is a bit unstable and I have 1,5 degree of camber

Caddyshack

Thanks Jay, I will do with 1.5degree IN for toe then. I am also aiming for 1.5 degrees of neg camber.


Aprreciate the info

markk

iTrader: (2)

Learn to work in metric.
degrees mins/sec is an old persons method .
3mm is alot on the front axle (total convergence ). will make it quite lazy to turn and will result in inner tyre edge wear.

Caddyshack

I do work in metric but the brand new laser gauge I bought is in degrees only.

Thanks for the info.

I will work to the revised setting that Jay mentioned above.

I took the other settings off the Martin Hadland posts about 6 degree beams for road car settings.

At the moment it has toe out, it has been quite interesting whilst experimenting with the geo to get it to the advised settings as even 0.5 camber makes a big difference to the feel of the car.

Once I am happy I will hand it over to the experts to refine.

Appreciate your guidance

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Mark is quite right and all the settings banded about are not right for individual cars as if you want to get technical about it the corner weight and sprung and understand sprung weight droop ect all comes into it so the settings I use are a nice Base to start at then tweet all to preference and tyre choice ect so tyres will have ex amount of roll in side walls ect but 3 degree of town in is way out

Caddyshack

It was 3 MM not 3 degrees that Martin Posted and that was what I posting about.

I only want to get the car dialled in "about right" so it works on the road and then I will get Dave Wedge or Mark Shead to do a full setup for me. Funnily enough Dave mentioned maybe meeting at X sport to have it weighted etc. He wants me to get the springs, ride height and geo roughly where I am comfortable before he works with the car as he quite rightly said that there is not point paying him Ł350 per day when he would be adjusting tracking etc...especially as I may need to order parts.

I am in discussions with a few people on tyres as I just run Toyo proxes at the moment whilst testing and clearly they are not up to the power. I am thinking something like R888 or similar but being that they are only 16 inch rims I would not be able to Michelin pilot sport cup2 in that size so I may need to look at Lotus Elise stuff.

Caddyshack

It is very difficult getting any set up figures from anyone, even if rough. I have asked a lot of people and got no responses so relied on a search on here to give me a basic target.

I am also at a disadvantage as my car is 21 CENTIMETERS (note the metric) shorter in wheel base than a Saph, it is also narrower at the strut tops and probably weighs around 400kg less but runs on 7X16 rims so any setup is going to be purely bespoke. A lot of the setup people work in Motorsport so they are too extreme as I want this to be the best it can be on a bumpy B road so I am looking for compliance, travel and bump control plus all the other things that I haven't even learned about yet.

The main aim though is to have it handle a B road as well as or better than my standard 1.9gti and if anyone has not seen how well one of those (in good standard setup condition with fresh shox) can destroy a B road then they need to try one.

I am sure the bump steer will need to be fettled. I have considered one of the WRC beams like MK does as this gives a few more options for TCA location (plus is stronger and lighter) but I am not ready to pull out the engine and repaint the engine bay so that will need to wait.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Lol @ Dave Wedge we call him dave loads of wedge . When people say tony@ turbo systems can charge like a wounded rhino they have no idea lol but if you want to find that second on a timed lap when you have exhausted all avenues Dave will find it . He is mustard at what he does . He actually classes the 6 degree as a cheap bodge as he can do a lot better but I couldn't get enough for my kidneys to pay for it lol

Caddyshack

It does seem like a minefield out there. My mate spent a fortune on his GT3 with Barwell Motorsport and the car was almost undrivable at the end of hit, he had to go back to standard and start again.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Dave is just brilliant at what he does mate

markk

iTrader: (2)

The geo is very personal to the driver but must follow fundamental base settings.
your car needs a very neutral if not a little calming down because of the wheel base.

I must say that the behaviour of a car and how it turns is about the rear axle not so much the front.

If ANYONE starts geo settings at the front axle take the car off them and find someone who knows what they are doing.

Its not a black art, you simply need to know cause and effect of each adjustment.

Caddyshack

Today I fitted the spoox motorsport adjustable top mounts and that did the trick, I pulled the top of the struts out wards but kept them in the same plane so the castor has probably moved very little. The camber became 0.5 positive so I was then able to bring the tca's back to the standard position on the subframe and then I wound out about 10mm each side on the tcas. I now have 1.5 neg camber and toe in 1.5 deg. Will double check castor tomorrow and reset it all again if that has moved. Therefore the front should now all be at a basic and non extreme normal ish setting.

I will do the same with the rear beam then soften the springs which will then mean Dave can corner weight the car and then suggest what needs to change.

I had the Paul Edwards set up on my carrera 3.2 and that car was so docile, predictable and controllable that you could take liberties just like a good e30 m3. If I can get it to drive that well I will be well chuffed.

Ridgey

iTrader: (5)

Toyo R888 I always found to overheat on track after 10 mins.
The new R888R are ment to be much better and not overheat as easily.
Kumho V70 are better IMO. I ran a 225/45 a little while ago when I was on 16" wheels.

Have you found Mike Rainbirds posts from the past on here advising of road and track setup parameters. They were also in one of the FastFord magazine articles on Cossie setup, probably available on Mikes (R&B Motorsport) website and FastFords.

Caddyshack

I won't use the Cossie on track as I have a track car that I don't mind killing so the r888 would be for the road but keen to try the r888r.
Mike rainbird quoted:

6 degree beam



Fast road:
Front:
Camber: 1.5° neg
Caster: 3°30'
Toe-IN: 2mm
Rear:
Camber: 1.5° neg
Toe-IN 3mm

Track:
Front:
Camber: 2.5° neg
Caster: 3°30'
Toe-IN: 2mm
Rear:
Camber: 2.0° neg
Toe-IN 3mm

AGGRESSIVE track use - these are the full on Grp A tarmac settings! (can only be achieved with 10mm longer drive shafts and OE steering rack (aftermarket replacement ones use tie rods that are too short and need extension pieces available from Reyland Motorsport to achieve anything more than 1.5° neg camber). This is for use with slicks and track day tyres and is not recommended for road use, will reduce traction in a straight line in the wet :
Front:
Camber: 3.0° neg
Caster: 3°30'
Toe-IN: 2mm
Rear:
Camber: 2° 45' neg
Toe-IN 3mm

Caddyshack

I have now got caster 3deg30, 1.5 neg camber and 1.5 deg toe in so I think I am pretty close. I will set the rear to the figures above too for road use.

Caddyshack

Ok, front is as described above. The car still feels a little odd in the straight ahead. I.e. If driving normally and then boot it the car feels like it moves one way and the first bit of steering doesn't feel like it does much. But in corners it feels great.

At the moment the rear is not adjustable as beam not on yet but it is running 2.8 deg neg camber which seems massive and don't see how it can on a standard beam?

I wonder if I am getting a type of bump steer on acceleration as the car lifts it MAY be altering something but when I lift it on the ramps nothing looks to change all that much

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

What are the angles of the arms toby

Caddyshack

Do you mean the track control arms? They are pretty level at normal ride height, slightly pointing downward as in slightly higher at the sub frame and lower at the wheel but not by much (can measure) and the steering arms look pretty much in the same line.

markk

iTrader: (2)

Way too much camber on the rear, 0.5deg neg, you need no more on the road, the rear toe is so important but you haven't mentioned that, what is it?
on the rear depending on how fast the car will turn (wheelbase affects this) then you can change the turn in and straight line stability.
If it turns fast and wants to spin round, then add more negative rear toe.
The rear toe will affect stability under acceleration even more if you have rubber bushings in the rear suspension anywhere.

Caddyshack

I haven't got the 6 degree beam on the rear yet and only looked at the camber and I agree there is way too much on there, the rear toe SHOULD be as per standard cossie but then also so should the camber. The rear beam is pro flexed at the moment but will be the MK 6 deg beam (when he delivers It).

I will see if I can measure the rear toe and if I can't I will get it on my friends laser hunter system to see but will all be properly done when the 6 deg is on there.

The Mike Rainbird settings for 6 deg look to be more neg on the rear than you have suggested.

I THINK I read somewhere that Marks MK beam allows for some castor adjustment on the rear too but I could be wrong.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Take no notice at Mike'so settings there for a tarmac rally car if you read the cossie manual . Of which they basically run very soft cut slicks and soft suspension ect nothing near how you would setup a road car toby .. never really understood why so many listened to the rubbish back then lol .

Caddyshack

I am sooooo glad that Marc kept questioning as I looked up 2mm on a conversion table when using 16 inch wheels. It equates to 17minutes so I can only think jay meant 1.5mm and not deg.

The car has gone from oh my god it wants me dead to pussy cat and mega stable with none of what I thought was bump steer or lift.

Thank you Marc, the car is now feeling perfect and I was able to gun it like never before. Can't wait for the rear beam now. Come on Mark Walker, get it shipped!

ajamesc

Sounds like your be having some serious fun on a sunny weekend hunting down bikes lol

Caddyshack

It's funny, whilst I was out a chap in a new BMW was behind me and seemed to be keeping up well whilst I warmed the engine, short shifting at about 3500 rpm, then the road opened up and I gave it some proper beans and he became a spec in the mirror. Modern cars are fast, I used to find that I had to work my 993 carrera pretty hard to show the road to something like a mondeo v6/ st whatever they are. But this car destroys things like that....I was looking at power to weight ratios and mine is up there with a MacLaren f1 so it is no suprise I guess.

The second owner of this car lost his licence after getting caught playing with his mates Ducati 916...and that was with 330bhp.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Sorry toby it was 1.5 mmI did try calling yesterday mate

Caddyshack

It is minus 5 out with slippery conditions so not really the best time to be shaking down the best part of 500lbft of torque, a few interesting moments. I have it the full beans in 3rd up to 6200 and had a very sideways moment around 5000 rpm.

Still loads to do but getting there.

Caddyshack

Does everyone agree that 3 deg 30 Caster is about right?

Ridgey

iTrader: (5)

As much caster as you can get on the front.

Marc sierra

iTrader: (1)

I'm happy to have helped. A few years back I had the exact same problem as you so I researched a bit how toe actually works.


Measuring toe in mm is actually a bit old I think, all the alignment systems I have come across have never used it. It also doesn't really make sense to measure it in mm as toe should be an angle, therefore you always have to check the diameter of the wheels. If measuring in mm the toe value is the difference in distance between the front of the wheels and the back of the wheels. So with bigger wheels this value will automatically be higher while the actual toe (in degrees) is the same.


Some other thing to be aware of is that some alignment systems measure in degrees and minutes but others measure in degrees and hunderds of a degree. For the first the total value should be 0°17', but for the second it should be 0,28° (0°17' x 100/60).


For the castor value I'm not really sure if the 3°30' is actually ideal. On a drift car you definately want more. More caster makes the car more stabile, adds self-centering of the steering and also adds negative camber to the outside wheel and removes camber from the inside wheel when the steering wheel is turned.
But apparently too much caster can make the car understeer. But the 3°30' isn't all that much in my opinion, there are lots of cars running something like 7°00'. I don't know what is ideal for a Sierra setup, I would expect it is something that Ford experimented with though. And with the Group A/WRC cars having adjustable top mounts they could have gone higher in caster value, but still the settings for the Escort Cosworth Group A and WRC said 3°30'. Maybe it's just best to experiment with that.

Caddyshack

Thank You so much for that info, really useful. I am enjoying learning about it and experimenting. What amazes and frustrates me is that you adjust one thing and then the others all move, you then re-set and something else seems to move OR you jack the car up to make the adjustment more simple and then need to drive a bit to make it all settle to make sure nothing has changed.....It seems that making a small adjustment and try it then adjust again is the best way for me.

Will get the rear beam in soon and then the fun begins.