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Hi I am Max,
my first post here, I am not a "talker" or writer in this case. I will fill the thread mainly with pictures as I am going through the build/change process. Lots of changes are already done but I'm not finished yet.
Goal is: 360HP and 600kg wet.
picture as I bought the car 1 year ago.
thank you all for sharing the information which is already on this forum!!
Quick test to see if the airflow in the cooler can be inproved.... just +1% in flow. Expected a bit more. Will not be executed i think.
Without sharpening Sharpend with wood to do the test. As is.
Displayed is airspeed. With calculation to airflow m3/h it is 1% gain.
Why are you using internal gated housing on to a external gated manifold.
Mark
Hi Mark.
I bought the turbo first, based on the spec's.
Manifold didnt fit in the Dax so i had to cut a bit.... hope the internal is good enough. Same with the blow off... first want to try with the internal. Mayby later on i do both external.
Its just for 360hp so i trust that turbo alone can do the job. (Capeable for 400 as advertised)
I have got a spare one of those intercoolers if you want it free
thanks,much appreciated. I am ok for now.
yeh jontysave, maybe you are right what is the restriction the cooling or flow? both I guess....
lets try and see with this one. (have my own dyno so I can test and find what the restriction is)
for now I am going for the shortest/smoothest way to the intake.
yeh jontysave, maybe you are right what is the restriction the cooling or flow? both I guess....
lets try and see with this one. (have my own dyno so I can test and find what the restriction is)
for now I am going for the shortest/smoothest way to the intake.
thanks
will be the cooling. What works in a sierra/escort wont necessarily work in a 7 clone.
This is my Garrett cored intercooler for 29psi on the efr7163 in a Westfield nose cone.
I have got an airtec 100mm thick one, it is about 3 times the size if this standard one and is as big as an rs500 one, just thicker and more efficient, I still get 20-30 degrees c regularly and have seen 50c peak. I think anything over 300bhp you will need a much bigger core, not for flow, you need surface area.
Thanks.
Based in your comments I start thinking how to fit a bigger cooler without adding to much pipping. Still want the shortest line to the intake.
See flowresults with new intercooler intake.
thats 12% improvement..... did not expect that.
how are you measuring flow? I think people always get a bit tied up wanting the shortest intake piping with a turbo. At 29psi on your set up and 2" intake piping gas speeds will be up around Mach 0.4. 1ft of pipe or 6ft of 2" pipe will not make any difference.
i too have a cosworth rush though mines the 4wd variant. what vintage is yours?
great to see your intercooler testing, though as someone said in an earlier post on this thread, the cosworth 4wd intercooler may not be big enough. i think it has good charge air flow (low restriction) because its very deep with wide tubes but not a lot of frontal area. also in the rush, its positioning means that it gets heat soak from the rad below it when you are at the traffic lights. sevens also typically dont evacuate the hot air in the bonnet area very well.
about 20 years ago Dax supplied a thing they called a 'splitter' which divided the air coming through the nose cone between the engine rad and the intercooler. they also provided a curved upswept fibreglass thing which was meant to deflect the air exiting the intercooler upwards. it didnt work because the air pressure over the nose cone was greater than the pressure exiting the intercooler.
its difficult to measure inlet air temps in a yb (at least it is when the yb is in a 7) because of heat soak. over the last year ive done some data logging and measurirng of IAT's however and i believe that an air water intercooler is the most effective solution for a road going 7 though clearly its more complex.
as soon as i saw the picture you posted of your manifold i thought 'that wont fit in a rush!' due to the external waste gate which i see you've cut off. did you get the manifold custom made?
i think the turbo you have will be better than the larger 7163 for road use. i put a 7163 on mine and it makes loads of power from 37 psi @ 5000 onwards but substantially less lower down than the dyno plots show for the other efr turbos. for this reason ive now bought a 7064!
borg warner have a marvelous program called matchbot which you can download. you tell it info like engine size, boost pressure required at what rpm, intercooler details etc and it will calculate what efr turbine wheel and compmressor wheel you require to get your objectives.
looking at your intercooler again i may have incorrectly assumed it was a cosworth 4x4 one when in fact it was a 2wd one? although the 2wd one is shorter, even then it looks like the unit will be too wide for a dax chassis with those end tanks on. does it fit ok?
i too have a cosworth rush though mines the 4wd variant. what vintage is yours?
great to see your intercooler testing, though as someone said in an earlier post on this thread, the cosworth 4wd intercooler may not be big enough. i think it has good charge air flow (low restriction) because its very deep with wide tubes but not a lot of frontal area. also in the rush, its positioning means that it gets heat soak from the rad below it when you are at the traffic lights. sevens also typically dont evacuate the hot air in the bonnet area very well.
about 20 years ago Dax supplied a thing they called a 'splitter' which divided the air coming through the nose cone between the engine rad and the intercooler. they also provided a curved upswept fibreglass thing which was meant to deflect the air exiting the intercooler upwards. it didnt work because the air pressure over the nose cone was greater than the pressure exiting the intercooler.
its difficult to measure inlet air temps in a yb (at least it is when the yb is in a 7) because of heat soak. over the last year ive done some data logging and measurirng of IAT's however and i believe that an air water intercooler is the most effective solution for a road going 7 though clearly its more complex.
as soon as i saw the picture you posted of your manifold i thought 'that wont fit in a rush!' due to the external waste gate which i see you've cut off. did you get the manifold custom made?
i think the turbo you have will be better than the larger 7163 for road use. i put a 7163 on mine and it makes loads of power from 37 psi @ 5000 onwards but substantially less lower down than the dyno plots show for the other efr turbos. for this reason ive now bought a 7064!
borg warner have a marvelous program called matchbot which you can download. you tell it info like engine size, boost pressure required at what rpm, intercooler details etc and it will calculate what efr turbine wheel and compmressor wheel you require to get your objectives.
will be soon i hope together with a very compact twin scroll manifold - once i get the 7064 fitted.
getting the 7064 in has required fabrication of a new manifold which due to the lack of space is probably the most complex thing I've ever done on a car!
will be soon i hope together with a very compact twin scroll manifold - once i get the 7064 fitted.
getting the 7064 in has required fabrication of a new manifold which due to the lack of space is probably the most complex thing I've ever done on a car!
What makes you think the 7064 will spoil better than the smaller framed 7163?
well, firstly because Mark Shead has said so on several posts, secondly his various dyno plots show that is does spool better compared to my results, thirdly because of this video
and forthly because the borg warner matchbot program says it will.
i found the matchbot program is really enlightening. you can tell it what boost you would like to see at what rpm for a given engine size and you can then dump those figures onto any of thier current compressor maps which, of course, also gives you the speed the turbo needs to spin at for that boost at whatever air flow is required. it then will work out how much power the turbo shaft needs to develop and which turbine is capable of making that power at that turbo speed. you then 'tune' the lower graph to ensure they have a turbo with matched turbine for your situation. the 7064 seem to look better than a 7163 for a 2 litre engine in terms of early spooling.
im not saying that the 7163 is a bad turbo for a yb - far from it. its easily the best turbo i have used but i have no experience of anything newer than a TT38. it's certainly makes my car quick and almost scary from about 5k onwards and would be probably quite well suited to a typical 7 2wd in so far as the boost doesn't come in with a kick like a t34 does which can easily light up the back wheels. i think the 7163 might be be a good track turbo for a high revving 7 but less so for a road going 7 with a 3.6 diff. 5th would never get into the full spool unless you're doing 90mph as you're typically trying to keep it over 4500 to make it work. 7's aren't usually used as high speed motorway cars so why have gear ratios / turbo which is suited to that environment? i haven't looked at the 6258 or 6758 in matchbot but i think they would look better for a road 7 than a 7163 is.
I've got a 4.4 diff, an 800kg car with 8:1 comp, home ported head, bd15/16 cams. i dont know how much impact the cams have but in my limited understanding of the situation you dont need std short duration cams with twin scroll and you benefit from the higher lift & longer duration. happy to be corrected on this however if someone thinks that my cams are impacting on my spoolup. i have played around with the cam timing +-5 degs on each one from a start of 110 / 110 with little impact.
It's also possible that a tuner would get better spooling results than i did. it has been on a rolling road but the guy didnt really know much about it and said that there was too much noise for him to use his det cans?????? so he left the timing safe at 5 degrees AFTER tdc when it was on boost - waste of time imho. maybe someone who knew what they're doing could improve spool by adjusting cams / ignition.
I'd post up the data log if i could understand how to do it but it shows the following:
in 4th and flooring it from 1765rpm we took 5.5 seconds to get to 4904rpm with boost as follows:
I would would be looking at your tune and exhaust port sizes. You're going to find little difference by changing to the 7064. There in reality will be circa 300rpm +/- difference in spool on a yb between the two.
Originally Posted by 20/20 vision
Hi Jonty, Maxdax - sorry for the thread highjack!
well, firstly because Mark Shead has said so on several posts, secondly his various dyno plots show that is does spool better compared to my results, thirdly because of this video
and forthly because the borg warner matchbot program says it will.
i found the matchbot program is really enlightening. you can tell it what boost you would like to see at what rpm for a given engine size and you can then dump those figures onto any of thier current compressor maps which, of course, also gives you the speed the turbo needs to spin at for that boost at whatever air flow is required. it then will work out how much power the turbo shaft needs to develop and which turbine is capable of making that power at that turbo speed. you then 'tune' the lower graph to ensure they have a turbo with matched turbine for your situation. the 7064 seem to look better than a 7163 for a 2 litre engine in terms of early spooling.
im not saying that the 7163 is a bad turbo for a yb - far from it. its easily the best turbo i have used but i have no experience of anything newer than a TT38. it's certainly makes my car quick and almost scary from about 5k onwards and would be probably quite well suited to a typical 7 2wd in so far as the boost doesn't come in with a kick like a t34 does which can easily light up the back wheels. i think the 7163 might be be a good track turbo for a high revving 7 but less so for a road going 7 with a 3.6 diff. 5th would never get into the full spool unless you're doing 90mph as you're typically trying to keep it over 4500 to make it work. 7's aren't usually used as high speed motorway cars so why have gear ratios / turbo which is suited to that environment? i haven't looked at the 6258 or 6758 in matchbot but i think they would look better for a road 7 than a 7163 is.
I've got a 4.4 diff, an 800kg car with 8:1 comp, home ported head, bd15/16 cams. i dont know how much impact the cams have but in my limited understanding of the situation you dont need std short duration cams with twin scroll and you benefit from the higher lift & longer duration. happy to be corrected on this however if someone thinks that my cams are impacting on my spoolup. i have played around with the cam timing +-5 degs on each one from a start of 110 / 110 with little impact.
It's also possible that a tuner would get better spooling results than i did. it has been on a rolling road but the guy didnt really know much about it and said that there was too much noise for him to use his det cans?????? so he left the timing safe at 5 degrees AFTER tdc when it was on boost - waste of time imho. maybe someone who knew what they're doing could improve spool by adjusting cams / ignition.
I'd post up the data log if i could understand how to do it but it shows the following:
in 4th and flooring it from 1765rpm we took 5.5 seconds to get to 4904rpm with boost as follows:
I would would be looking at your tune and exhaust port sizes. You're going to find little difference by changing to the 7064. There in reality will be circa 300rpm +/- difference in spool on a yb between the two.
but what reasoning do you have to support that view?
Please go there and adjust the input parameters to match your set up. Once you have done that you can use the drop down menu to compare the two different compressor stages.
The 7064 will allow more pressure ratio early in the RPM range based on the positioning of the surge line.
You will see this in Matchbot.
Other things that are super critical to seeing earlier boost response is to have a twin scroll turbine housing and a divided exhaust manifold timed correctly to take advantage of pulse energy.
This combination will improve initial boost and transient boost response by as much a 15%.
Please tell me what performance distributer you are buying from?
Thanks,
Brian Rhinehart
BorgWarner
IAM Tech Service
I would would be looking at your tune and exhaust port sizes. You're going to find little difference by changing to the 7064. There in reality will be circa 300rpm +/- difference in spool on a yb between the two.
What you have said is completely wrong and not from a experienced point of view. The 7064 monsters the 7163 in every area past 3000rpm there is no comparison between the two from there.
The only area the 7163 is very slightly better is at 2000rpm to 2.5k due to the exhaust flow restrictions that kill that turbo as soon as you want big boost. Overlay the comp map on both and it's as plain as day to see.
What you have said is completely wrong and not from a experienced point of view. The 7064 monsters the 7163 in every area past 3000rpm there is no comparison between the two from there.
The only area the 7163 is very slightly better is at 2000rpm to 2.5k due to the exhaust flow restrictions that kill that turbo as soon as you want big boost. Overlay the comp map on both and it's as plain as day to see.
Mark
is he not talking about initial spool? Also on a YB powered 7 you can't really cool the charge enough to go over 28-29 psi so that monster mid range torque that you could have in a saph with a decent intercooler isn't an option.
31-12-2016, 08:17 AM
Dax Cosworth
interesting read, thank you.
