Another one going for 200mph!(full fia/msa spec caged racecar)

[turbotoaster]

Been thinking about this for the last couple of months and ive decided to go for it!! Im sure a few of you remember a while back that a thread was posted about how much it actually costs to do 200mph at brunters. The thread went a big barmy when you had all the little groups throwing there dummy out and a few extras pitching in for the fun, at the time i didnt really pay that much attention to it, just sort of skimmed to top of it. Anyway while reading the one thing i picked up on was our friendly neighbourhood magazine reporter from redline, mr stav/steve. He claimed that you could go 200mph for £10k, of course everyone claimed that was rubbish but he stuck by his guns and made a few examples that made sense to me. Yes you could build a multipurpose car that will happen to do 200mph with all the shiny alloy bits on and spend a fortune, but if you had one goal in mind and nothing else i believed it was possible. Now i wont really turn this into a build thread as such as it will be probably be moved and id like to keep it here for everyone to see as i think this section brings in the most experience and knowledge on the subject. So a quick run down, the plan is to buy a car, tune it and make it run 200mph at brunters for £10k. Already spent a long time chatting to MadRod about this and hes give me lots of useful information and seems to back me up on this. Spoke to Stav and hes gonna do a full magazine coverage and pay for the day etc so its a definete goer! So what do you all think, anyone interested in my ideas, designs etc?

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[*beddows*]

im interested to see if you can
good luck m8!

[scoooby slayer]

what car you going to use mate ?

[Lloyd]

only problem i see,is to do it for 10k.then you will need to buy used /second hand parts.
its very expensive to make a car stop and handle at 200mph.and if you cut corners you are risking your life.would it really be worth the risks involved ?
your life insurance policys are unlikely to pay out on your death in these circumstances.

[stu21t]

Depends what car.
If a Cossie I think youl b lucky.
If an e36 m3 I think it will b a piece of piss.
They do 180 as STD.
Buy 1 for £2.5k
£4k on a supercharger kit and few other bits,
£800 on nitrous
£800 on brakes
£800 suspension
£800 roll cage
the rest on bits and bobs, strip the car and 200mph job jobbed. And probably a bloody good track car to.

As your buying a 2nd hand car, you could get 1 1/2 done for a few extra £££
£4k will get you a good evo with suspension, strut braces, air filter, exhaust....
Plus you can sell off the bits that are removed like leather for £500.....

[Its Dave]

Good Luck, l know how hard it is and l was 6mph short

[dannyblackpool]

its a rx7 iirc

[TT300]

Will be a piece of piss in a rex, my failry standard fd3 would touch a true 175 in no time at all.

Single turbo, 6/700 and a touch of nitrous should be possible in that budget.

[Big G]

Would an M3 not suffer some wind drag issues, doesnt look the cleanest car to cut through air or is drag not a great issue for 200clicks.

[m4tt274]

i would use an rx7. they are very aerodynamic and becuase there are so few components to the engine making big power is just a case or turbo, manifold, ECU and fuel rail.
myn was 400bhp and it would pull 180

[simon170]

Best of luck mate, hope it goes well.

Keep a posittive head!

[ajamesc]

Originally Posted by stu21t

Depends what car.
If a Cossie I think youl b lucky.
If an e36 m3 I think it will b a piece of piss.
They do 180 as STD.
Buy 1 for £2.5k
£4k on a supercharger kit and few other bits,
£800 on nitrous
£800 on brakes
£800 suspension
£800 roll cage
the rest on bits and bobs, strip the car and 200mph job jobbed. And probably a bloody good track car to.

As your buying a 2nd hand car, you could get 1 1/2 done for a few extra £££
£4k will get you a good evo with suspension, strut braces, air filter, exhaust....
Plus you can sell off the bits that are removed like leather for £500.....

standard e36m3s do 180 lol wear on earth did u get that from then? for a start there factory limited to 155 lol

[dovboy]

dont worry abt brakes just fit a parachuet!

its not just getting to 200 its doing it in a fairly short space at brunters.

i think and hope you can do it,rex with good power and nos is a good choice,low drag with them i would have thought.you get the rear wheel covers for them eh?

[vroooom ptssssh]

and you expect an RX7 engine to last that long? lol


Good choice of car, wrong engine IMO.

[m4tt274]

Originally Posted by vroooom ptssssh

and you expect an RX7 engine to last that long? lol


Good choice of car, wrong engine IMO.

??
do u know anything about the engine.
the engines are more reliable than the YB.
they just need servicing regularly and warming up is essential. if u do that they never go wrong.

[turbotoaster]

ok guys, the car im building is a mazda 1994 rx7, a few of you may have seen my thread in builds and stuff ive mentioned on here in the past.

Ok to give you a run down on the situation.

I bought the car last april for £3000

The reason this car will work is that alot of the things i require are already with the car.

It has a very low drag coefficient body 0.28 which means cutting through the air is easier, it has double wishbone suspension all around which adjustable camber from factory.

I have since fitted a set of tein coilovers with alloy top mounts, i got these from a friend who had only done 1000 dry miles on them for £300, this gives me the ability to make the car very low to help with aero, ie fast under, slow over creating downforce.

Now up until last year there has never been forged components for the rotary engine, its just something thats never been developed because of the complexity and the tooling cost.

This means that every power rotary engine has always used stock internals. Those 1000bhp rx7s you see at the drag strip are running the same bits that the guy up the street is running on his stock 250bhp rx7.

Now the benefit of this is the lack of parts that needs to be bought, when your going for big power on a piston engine most people 'forge' the bottom end by spending say £1k-£3k on rods, pistons and maybe a stroker crank.

Another benefit of this engine is the lack of cams, valves.

Now if you want more power from a piston engine you normally need more aggressive cams so you can get the air in and out alot easier, which can cost alot of money, some people pay up to £4k for a worked over head with lairy cams.

To do the same on a rotary all we need to do is port out the housings, now this costs anything from £200 put to £500 depending on where you go and what you have done.

For my engine, we have gone for a large port and also ported the inlet manifold, removed the extra throttle butterflies to help with flow.

This is the same as flowing the head and putting in more aggresive cams, gives the ability to make power higher in the rpms and also due to the extra flow of the port also means that the turbo will spool earlier.

Ill post this now and type the next bit up

[nugnah]

good luck mate, i think you can do it.

Jason

[longdog]

Good luck fella, I've just been reading about Stav's drift rx7 on Driftworks.

[turbotoaster]

as above, port timing...how high, low and wide you go affects timing, the bigger you go, the higher it will be making power.

On the issue of reliabilty, this is very much dependant on the tune of the ecu, unlike piston engines you do not go to knock then back off a couple of degrees, a piston engine will cope with a small amount of det before breaking, this is not true for a rotary, they cannot take any at all, the moment you get knock the 2mm metal seals that sit in the corners of the rotor break off and exit the engine.

So a 2mm bit of metal hold the explosion of a combustion chamber, its an awful lot to ask but thats what it was developed for and does very well.

Right so the engine was rebuilt with all new belts, bearings, seals all around the rotors and water seals all around the housings(kind of like a headgasket)

This came to a total of £3000, the reason for the large price is because I also had new housings put in, this was to make sure i had perfect compression to make the most power for the boost i was running, if not the bill would have been £700 less, £3000 i think is pretty good for an engine that can hold 700bhp, this includes a walk in/walk out service with a 12month warrantee.

Well thats the engine covered, now ill move onto all the bolt ons to make the power

[Escow-Van]

Standard internals? Sounds a bargain! Just stay safe is all I can say

[Benni]

All the best with it mate. I hope you do it.

Benni.

[AlexF]

Originally Posted by turbotoaster

This is the same as flowing the head and putting in more aggresive cams, gives the ability to make power higher in the rpms and also due to the extra flow of the port also means that the turbo will spool earlier.

Ill post this now and type the next bit up

What?

I think you need to do a little more reading up about cars before you atempt 200 mph with so little knowledge hehehe

[miller3]

Good luck pal

[CossieRich]

Best of luck. Am interested in this.

[turbotoaster]

now when speaking to Rod he mentioned to me that i would need roughly 630-650bhp to achieve 200mph, now thats in an ideal situation, ie im making that power at exactly 200mph, this brought me on to how much power do i actually need, the first thing to do is have a look around at a few compressor maps and also a few examples from the US/OZ

Now there is a thread on here about compressor maps by scooby slayer, perfect thing to work out what turbo i would need.

Now the problem with rotarys is they are very un-efficient with the airflow that they recieve, for every 10lb of air they recieve they only make use of a max of 7.5lb of it.

So to make say 750bhp ill need a 1000bhp turbo if everyone follows me?

because of this un-efficent process the forces are not used fully for movement and are passed onto heat, hence why rotarys run so hot and also produce really high EGTs in turn because of the high EGTs the energy is passed out of the engine and into spooling a turbo, hence you can run a very large turbo for its engine capacity.

I did look at the garratt range of turbos but since this is very limited in budget i decided to discount them.

This left with me with a few other brands, mostly american diesel turbos. Now a company a few people may have heard off called Borg Warner are becoming increasingly popular in the performance market

Ill type up the next bit on my turbo choice in a second

[turbotoaster]

Originally Posted by AlexF

What?

I think you need to do a little more reading up about cars before you atempt 200 mph with so little knowledge hehehe

when a combustion chamber opens and closes.

thats what cams do.

the style and size of port on a rotary does the same thing, unless ive not explained it clearly

[turbotoaster]

ok there are many different turbos from borg warner.

I have decided to go with a s475 which can flow 100lb/min with a 1.15 A/R rear end, i can go larger on the rear but decided this is a good compromise between spool and top end power.

I can give full specs of wheel sizes if anyone needs it, Rod actually has one these turbos himself that hes looking to try out.

It will normally outspool the equivalant GT4202 by 400rpm on a rotary and they ony cost £400-£600 from USA so a bit of a bargain!

Obviously you have this massive turbo, your gonna need to connect it to the engine, this is where a forum member on here called rickylee comes into force.

Now a few of you may have seen his manifold he made on his turbo civic build thread, after seeing that i got in touch with him about making me a manifold, really nice chap and he will be building it, will also run a 5inch downpipe to help with spool and top end power which will exit behind the drivers side wheel.

Ill be using a 60mm wastegate and the manifold will be a t6 divided version to help out boost threshold

Ill come onto cooling in the next post

[Char1ie]

I'm an old cynic and I read these 200mph threads and think what is the point?


Charlie

[turbotoaster]

now your throwing an awful lot of hot air around into an engine that is known to run hot anyway.

Without proper thinking its a recipy for disaster.

The standard radiator is around 30mm thick and does a decent job for a standard car but very quickly reaches its limit once your running alot of power.

Alot of people choose to keep the stock one for a while when running single turbo, the reason for this is 2 fold.

1. because most single turbos are only oil cooled you have one less hot think to dump heat back into the water system.

2. because of the larger rear end of a single compared to the twins theres less restriction for the heat leaving the engine, this in turn helps get the heat out of the rotary engine faster, this was something i read and im sure theres a better way of typing it, but ill leave that for improvement.

Now im not just gonna run 400bhp on this engine, im looking nearly double that, so its silly to believe that the stock rad can cope.

Luckily the ebay rads you see for sale are only £120 and are proven to work on big power cars, they are 58mm thick which is a big improvement and are cheap as a bonus.

The car runs 2 oil coolers as stock and they are pretty good at controlling oil temps even on heavily tuned rx7s.

The next thing to come up is air temps, running 30psi+ on a massive turbo will cause high temps.

To get over this i decided to use the cossie way of dealing with them and get a rs500 intercooler, now normally they are 50mm in depth, this is fine im sure for 500bhp(i know rod used one at 600bhp) but im going for more than that and want to make life easier for myself so im going for a 70mm core version which should give me the cooling that i require.

here below is a picture of the setup...only in paint but gives you an idea

http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5433/enginemockup.jpg
now blue is intercooler, red is radiator and green is fans, the grey is the aluminum ducting which ill go all around the cooler so that no air is wasted and will then be forced through the rad aswell

also it will be keeping a stock front end, the front opening will give enough air to the cooler as the ducting will make a funnel shape to the cooler, if air looses a few mph before it gets to the cooler it wont matter at 150mph+

ok fueling next

[TurboShed]

Good luck mate

[vroooom ptssssh]

Originally Posted by m4tt274

??
do u know anything about the engine.
the engines are more reliable than the YB.
they just need servicing regularly and warming up is essential. if u do that they never go wrong.

Enough to know it's a bad idea to use one...

take his explanation about det for instance...if that's true and they cant handle ANY det whatesoever...then holding a high horsepower car down a runway for that long...well lets just say the mapping better be spot on.

[TT300]

I think you'll hit the magic number mate, have you checked out the racing beat rx7? The one that topped 250mph i think.

Same kit and alloys i had on mine. Mine was just under 440hp and i think in the given space would top 180.

I find it strange how a stock e46 m3 can top 180 with just 340 ish bhp???

[turbotoaster]

well ill be going with a power fc, its easy to tune and pretty versatile, yes something like a autronic/motec would be better but theres some big numbers being done over in the states on this ecu and money is an issue.

Thinking about injectors i did some calculations and for 650bhp a rotary needs 5500cc/min of fuel(not 100% duty, about 85%)

now ross at dragon performace and the guys at reworx both suggested i go with 6 injectors instead of trying to fit massive injectors into the primarys and secondarys as its alot harder to map.

im sure you guys know about trying to get a decent afr at idle with big and having to put loads of injector lag to do it.

so we talked about maybe 6 x1000cc injectors, but then that comes down to budget again.

I was watching a guy in america running 9s quarters running a stock ecu with a peter farell piggy back ecu controlling extra injectors, he was pushing 550whp+ which is the numbers im after.

i sat and thought about it a couple a nights ago and thought how can i do it.

it then came to me, i already have 2800cc of the injectors in the car at the moment, i only need another 2700cc and im sorted, both tuners recommended 6 injectors, so why dont i put 2 x 1600cc injectors in, that 3200cc worth of fuel, more than enough, watched a few videos of some monster rx3 and he was running extra injectors in his Upper Inlet Manifold and ive decided thats where they are gonna go, on the secondary port sides(outer edges) this means i keep my stock primarys for driving around like miss daisy, also keeps my afr while idling as normal and normal driving ill be ok

Fuel pumps will be 2x 305ltr pumps running in tank which will give me more than enough fueling

[turbotoaster]

Originally Posted by vroooom ptssssh

Enough to know it's a bad idea to use one...

take his explanation about det for instance...if that's true and they cant handle ANY det whatesoever...then holding a high horsepower car down a runway for that long...well lets just say the mapping better be spot on.

this is why most tuners wont run over say 1 bar of boost(with no w/i) on pump fuel because of det issues.

Rotarys dont loose alot of power by pulling timing, for example on engine had an extra 4 degrees of timing pulled from it and only lost 8hp

for this amount of boost ill be using racegas and water injection, the ignition will be conservative and there will be plenty of fuel going in

[turbotoaster]

Originally Posted by TT300

I think you'll hit the magic number mate, have you checked out the racing beat rx7? The one that topped 250mph i think.

Same kit and alloys i had on mine. Mine was just under 440hp and i think in the given space would top 180.

I find it strange how a stock e46 m3 can top 180 with just 340 ish bhp???

already spoke to jim at racing beat about his car and spent some time researching it, its running a triple rotary engine(20b) they did 242mph with 900bhp, they would have gone alot faster but had some stability issues as your driving on salt and not tarmac, ie it still wants to wheelspin at over 200mph

here is the email i got back from them

'Your question was forwarded to Jim Mederer, Racing Beat's co-founder and chief engineer, for review. The following is his reply to your inquiry:


Our Bonneville FD had a custom chassis with no part of the stock chassis. I made the driveline tunnel quite large to allow heated air to pass through. The entire car had a carbon fiber underpan bonded to the chassis. I used a 4" thick radiator to restrict air volume while maintaining high speed cooling. Intercooling was done with ice and water to reduce drag. I urge you to use a 4" to 5" high spoiler lip to obtain down force at the rear - critical for traction and stability.

Jim Mederer'

remember aswell that manufactor top speeds are normally done on big ovals where they can spend along time getting up to there top speed.

i remember someone said they hit 180mph in an m3 but that was on the autobahn and you can keep you foot down there for a very long time

[Madbradz]

Originally Posted by stu21t

If an e36 m3 I think it will b a piece of piss.
They do 180 as STD.

Hahahaha 180??? Where an earth did you get that from?
My e36 M3 was remapped and de restricted and only just did a few mph over 160, My mates EVO Only managed 165.

BTW Good Luck with 200MPH! Wish I had the time & Money to develop a 200MPH Car!

[turbotoaster]

one thing i havent mentioned here aswell is that the car will be running pre-turbo water injection, im making my own kit aswell and it will be a purely mechanical system so no pumps involved, got this idea from a couple of guys in america doing it, one guy runs 23psi on pump fuel on a big turbo daily, the other runs 32psi on pump fuel and has 700bhp.

this design isnt mine but im using it to give you an idea how it works.


very simple set up, good thing is, the solenoid will open at say 1bar(depends what i set it at) and the more boost you are running, the more water, so theres no need to fiddle with jet sizes once you have set it up to flow the right amount of water

[james kiely]

best of luck ,sounds like the rx7 should make it


cheers james

[ajamesc]

Originally Posted by TT300

I think you'll hit the magic number mate, have you checked out the racing beat rx7? The one that topped 250mph i think.

Same kit and alloys i had on mine. Mine was just under 440hp and i think in the given space would top 180.

I find it strange how a stock e46 m3 can top 180 with just 340 ish bhp???

fair play that rx7 is a very fast car but it did that on the salt planes can it do 200 in little over a mile! thats a very different game

[dovboy]

Originally Posted by vroooom ptssssh

Enough to know it's a bad idea to use one...

take his explanation about det for instance...if that's true and they cant handle ANY det whatesoever...then holding a high horsepower car down a runway for that long...well lets just say the mapping better be spot on.

dude you have him beat before he has even started!

i dont think there is a car out there that doesn't have some kind of weak spot,i'm sure trying to do 200 in any car would find those weak spots.