mk3 escort supercharged st170 box 9/11/10 charger mounted

[jonboisescort]

this is my car bike carbed have removed them for now due to not running right have these to go on now my old fiesta

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[Mike C]

That's really cool, love it!

[Ade]

That looks awesome! Love it!

What's the splitter from?

[jonboisescort]

cheers fellas

the splitter is from a mk3 golf

[T3ORA]

[vroooom ptssssh]

Simple but nice!

[Twins]

Saw it at fitp love it

[Glenn.]

Top motor mate i love mk3s.

[jonny s2]

thats a cool motor you got,wot are the carbs off also wot fuel pump are you running,

[xr2john]

Originally Posted by jonny s2

thats a cool motor you got,wot are the carbs off also wot fuel pump are you running,

me too!!!! im also interested what bits r used?

[BigPeBe]

Man that's cool. Bet it sounds lovely.

[jonzyRS]

how much bhp do they add......

[jonboisescort]

cheers everyone

the new bike carbs are off a gsxr 1100 i think 36mm


also

i used the mechanical fuel pump at first but delivered to much fuel pressure so fitted a regulater but have been having a few probs with this set up

so will be getting a motorbike fuel pump r1 etc

also the inlet manifold is a cut down escort rs turbo inlet manifold

a video of the old bike carbs on

the rattle noise was my thrust bearing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrs4WS4u7BQ

[Munch]

Thats Cool

Remember being in a convoy in Bournemouth with your old fez ages ago

[DanW@FastFord]

Originally Posted by jonboisescort

have removed them for now due to not running right

Bike throttle bodies are designed to work on small capacity very high revving engines, so are not really a wise choice to go on a car, in many cases they could even loose you power, as they don't come 'on song' until well after your car's rev limit.

[jonny s2]

so after everyone raving about how good they are,there not really?? sure they didnt need jetting an setting up?

[jonny s2]

yeah i think the bike fuel pump will run it a little better,most bike boddies are mainly from bout 38mm-42mm choke correct me if im wrong

[DanW@FastFord]

Originally Posted by jonny s2

so after everyone raving about how good they are,there not really?? sure they didnt need jetting an setting up?

Bike bodies just aren't suitable for cars!

[Garage19]

Originally Posted by DanW@FastFord

Bike throttle bodies are designed to work on small capacity very high revving engines, so are not really a wise choice to go on a car, in many cases they could even loose you power, as they don't come 'on song' until well after your car's rev limit.

Sorry mate, but you are talking utter bollocks.

Have you ever fitted bike carbs to a car engine?

I have, several times, and if tuned right they drive much better than most twin 45 equipt cars i've been in.

A set of 40 mm bike carbs would also have the potential to make more power than a set of 45s as in the 45s you have to run a 36/38mm choke!

[Garage19]

Originally Posted by DanW@FastFord

Bike bodies just aren't suitable for cars!

Tell us why then?

Are you refering to carbs again or throttle bodies?

Do you actually know how a CV carb or fuel injection throttle body works??

I hope you don't do the technical advice at your mag?

[Garage19]

Originally Posted by DanW@FastFord

Bike throttle bodies are designed to work on small capacity very high revving engines, so are not really a wise choice to go on a car, in many cases they could even loose you power, as they don't come 'on song' until well after your car's rev limit.

Exactly how does a 40mm hole with a butterfly in it on a car engine differ from a 40mm hole with a butterfly in it on a bike engine?

[Mark V8]

Originally Posted by Garage19

Exactly how does a 40mm hole with a butterfly in it on a car engine differ from a 40mm hole with a butterfly in it on a bike engine?

I had the same thought !

Perhaps I should have read Fast Ford before I wasted my time fitting these



Mark

[DanW@FastFord]

Originally Posted by Garage19

Tell us why then?

Are you refering to carbs again or throttle bodies?
Do you actually know how a CV carb or fuel injection throttle body works??
I hope you don't do the technical advice at your mag?

I'm referring to throttle bodies - I saw mention of GSXR and they're on throttle bodies (post 97 or 98) but I presume by your anger (and by reading the post more thoroughly) that they're carbs. I stand by what I said that throttle bodies meant for bikes are not wise to use on a car.

My understanding is that throttle bodies are all about getting the air speed correct for the engine. A bike engine needs high air speed, but not necessarily big volumes of air - whereas a larger capacity, lower revving car engine would need a larger body to allow greater volumes of air, but air speed isn't as important.

[Garage19]

Of course a bike engine needs a big volume of air! If you have two engines, 1ltr and the other 2ltr they will both need roughly the same amount of air to produce a the same, say 150 bhp, power out put.

[DanW@FastFord]

Originally Posted by Garage19

Of course a bike engine needs a big volume of air! If you have two engines, 1ltr and the other 2ltr they will both need roughly the same amount of air to produce a the same, say 150 bhp, power out put.

Yes, but not at the same rpm. The air speed needed in a 1ltr needs to be far greater than that for a 2ltr to attain the same output. There are a number of factors to take into consideration and not just the size of the butterfly!

The size of the trumpets can be altered to give the bodies more suitable characteristics, but in most car fitments (especially when the inlet is at the rear of the engine) there isn't sufficient space to fit long enough trumpets to make the bike throttle bodies work effectively.

The average length of a 1.0 motorbike system is 70-75mm whereas in a 2.0 car it needs to be nearer to 300mm in total.

A longer system means that the air flow is slower, so it gives the air/fuel mixture more time to mix and as a result gives better mid range power/torque. A bike system is shorter because its primary aim is to get the air into the engine as quickly as possible to allow for the higher revving nature of the engine.

Edit: Sorry about the thread hijack!! Nice car BTW!

[DanW@FastFord]

Originally Posted by Garage19

Exactly how does a 40mm hole with a butterfly in it on a car engine differ from a 40mm hole with a butterfly in it on a bike engine?

There is no difference between a 40mm hole on a car or a bike. It's a 40mm hole. But there is a huge difference in injector position, inlet tract length, inlet/trumpet shape etc

[Garage19]

Originally Posted by DanW@FastFord

Yes, but not at the same rpm. The air speed needed in a 1ltr needs to be far greater than that for a 2ltr to attain the same output. There are a number of factors to take into consideration and not just the size of the butterfly!

Sorry, but it seems clear you don't quite understand the basics of a four stroke engine. If a 1ltr and 2ltr engine are at the same rpm and have the same VE they cannot and will not be using the same amount of air.

Originally Posted by DanW@FastFord

The size of the trumpets can be altered to give the bodies more suitable characteristics, but in most car fitments (especially when the inlet is at the rear of the engine) there isn't sufficient space to fit long enough trumpets to make the bike throttle bodies work effectively.

Right... erm. Don't get your point here. You do not make any sense.

Normal car TB setup eg Jenvey = manifold / TBs / trumpets

Bike setup on car = manifold / TBs / trumpets

How does the bike setup have less space than the Jenveys??? If anything the bike TBs are shorter as they have to be compact on the bike, giving you more space to play with. In a FWD car most times any tuning of resonate frequencies in the inlet is limited by space. This is true if you use bike or car specific TBs. Not to mention that the dyno and development time/cost to carry out frequency tuning is beyond most diy car builders so hardly ever gets done.

Originally Posted by DanW@FastFord

The average length of a 1.0 motorbike system is 70-75mm whereas in a 2.0 car it needs to be nearer to 300mm in total.

The tuned length of you inlet is dependant on a whole host of things like which harmonic you use, desired rpm, cam timing, inlet manifold design etc. Come on Dan, think about it. If you are making your own manifold and haven’t bought any trumpets yet can you think of a way of increasing easily increasing the length of your bike TB inlet??? Hmmm.. Not rocket science is it!

Originally Posted by DanW@FastFord

A longer system means that the air flow is slower, so it gives the air/fuel mixture more time to mix and as a result gives better mid range power/torque. A bike system is shorter because its primary aim is to get the air into the engine as quickly as possible to allow for the higher revving nature of the engine.

Although there will be some loss of air speed due to boundary layer friction down a longer system it is primarily cross sectional area and air volume that dictate velocity. It is true that there are some advantages to mixing the air and fuel earlier in the inlet track. The air does not have to be slower for this to be an advantage as you seem to think. If the air speed is too low such as at low rpms the fuel will in fact drop out of the airflow.

A bike system is shorter because of a couple of reasons. Firstly the compact nature of the machine and secondly because at 15,000 rpm the harmonics are at a much higher frequency and require a shorter tuned length.

Originally Posted by DanW@FastFord

its primary aim is to get the air into the engine as quickly as possible to allow for the higher revving nature of the engine.

Surely the aim of all four stroke tuning is to get as much air into a cylinder as quickly as you can… is it not?

Edit: Sorry about the thread hijack!! Nice car BTW![/quote]

[Garage19]

Originally Posted by DanW@FastFord

There is no difference between a 40mm hole on a car or a bike. It's a 40mm hole. But there is a huge difference in injector position, inlet tract length, inlet/trumpet shape etc

All of which are totally configurable if you are using bike OR car specific TBs.

[Garage19]

Originally Posted by V8 EsCos

I had the same thought !

Perhaps I should have read Fast Ford before I wasted my time fitting these



Mark

Mark,

From memory your engine made some great figures on those bike TBs that don't work. Maybe you could tell Dan about them.

[Garage19]

Originally Posted by jonboisescort

cheers everyone

the new bike carbs are off a gsxr 1100 i think 36mm


also

i used the mechanical fuel pump at first but delivered to much fuel pressure so fitted a regulater but have been having a few probs with this set up

so will be getting a motorbike fuel pump r1 etc

also the inlet manifold is a cut down escort rs turbo inlet manifold

a video of the old bike carbs on

the rattle noise was my thrust bearing

Seeing as i have posted all over your thread i thought i'd give you a few tips on the bike carbs to help you get them running better.

Look carefully at the angle you have mounted them. Yours seem too flat. Most modern bike carbs will only be 35-45 degrees from vertical when on the bike. The angle is critical if you want the floats to work properly. If you set the angle wrong you can get fuel starvation or flooding.

On the subject of fuel pressure you need sod all. You only need enough pressure to deliver the fuel to the float bowl. Alot of bikes do not even have pumps as the gravity from the tank is enough.
If you have too much pressure the fuel will push past the float needles and the engine will run very rich / flood up when starting.

Once you have the car running you start by tuning the main jet first. Odd i know to start with what people think is the top end first but you have to think of this as a global change for all your fuelling. I suggest you start with a 1.6 main jet as a starting point. Then tune your needle height, and idle. Transient fuelling is controlled by the rate the slider lifts so is controlled by air bleeds and the spring.

Give me a shout if you get stuck.

[DanW@FastFord]

Originally Posted by Garage19

Sorry, but it seems clear you don't quite understand the basics of a four stroke engine. If a 1ltr and 2ltr engine are at the same rpm and have the same VE they cannot and will not be using the same amount of air.

That's kind of obvious. I was referring to air speed, not air volume.

Originally Posted by Garage19

Right... erm. Don't get your point here. You do not make any sense.Normal car TB setup eg Jenvey = manifold / TBs / trumpets, Bike setup on car = manifold / TBs / trumpets

Yes, but bike TBs have shorter bodies than car bodies. Sure you can configure them to be more suited to car applications, but in general people just bolt a set of bike bodies to their car and leave it at that. Which was my point. You've taken it and turned it into a different argument which I'm not contesting. Your grasp of how TBs work isn't the issue.

Originally Posted by Garage19

The tuned length of you inlet is dependant on a whole host of things like which harmonic you use, desired rpm, cam timing, inlet manifold design etc. Com on Dan, think about it. If you are making your own manifold and haven’t bought any trumpets yet can you think of a way of increasing easily increasing the length of your bike TB inlet??? Hmmm

Yes, you can alter the length of the inlet with spacers, larger trumpets etc - But the original point was that bike bodies are not as suitable as car bodies.

Originally Posted by Garage19

Although there will be some loss of airspeed due to boundary layer friction down a longer system it is primarily cross sectional area and air volume that dictate velocity. It is true that there are some advantages to mixing the air and fuel earlier in the inlet track. The air does not have to be slower for this to be an advantage. If the air speed is too low such as at low rpms the fuel will in fact drop out of the airflow

I don't disagree, but 'in general' would you not agree that longer inlet tracts are better for larger capacity car applications than shorter inlet tracts?

It seems like you've taken my comments out of context to prove your point.

[Mark V8]

Carb angle does not look too far out IF they are GSXR1100 ones as the engine is fairly vertical on the oil/air cooled Gixers but as Doug has said the angle is super critical, bikes are extremely fussy about float height and need no more than 2PSI of fuel pressure.

Mark

[Garage19]

Originally Posted by V8 EsCos

Carb angle does not look too far out IF they are GSXR1100 ones as the engine is fairly vertical on the oil/air cooled Gixers but as Doug has said the angle is super critical, bikes are extremely fussy about float height and need no more than 2PSI of fuel pressure.

Mark

True. I've used GSXR carbs on a pinto before so i could get them and the filter under the bonnet.

[Garage19]

Originally Posted by DanW@FastFord

That's kind of obvious. I was referring to air speed, not air volume.



Yes, but bike TBs have shorter bodies than car bodies. Sure you can configure them to be more suited to car applications, but in general people just bolt a set of bike bodies to their car and leave it at that. Which was my point. You've taken it and turned it into a different argument which I'm not contesting. Your grasp of how TBs work isn't the issue.



Yes, you can alter the length of the inlet with spacers, larger trumpets etc - But the original point was that bike bodies are not as suitable as car bodies.



I don't disagree, but 'in general' would you not agree that longer inlet tracts are better for larger capacity car applications than shorter inlet tracts?

It seems like you've taken my comments out of context to prove your point.

Dan, i'll remind you of your post.

"Bike bodies just aren't suitable for cars! "

How can i take that out of context. You have just announced to the world that bike TBs are not suitable for cars.

I've just been trying to show you that no matter what Jenvey have told you, bike bodies are suitable for cars.

I don't think you understand that air speed is totally linked to air volume and the CSA of what it passes through. It doesn't matter if that air volume is pumped by a big pump going slowly or a small pump going fast.

[Garage19]

Jon,

Having had a closer look at the pics i can see that the carbs you have on the engine at the mo are GSXR carbs. The carbs that you say you are yet to fit look like they are off something else. They are of the type that will need a steep angle by the looks of it. I would stick with the GSXR carbs if you do not want to make a new manifold.

[DanW@FastFord]

Originally Posted by Garage19

Dan, i'll remind you of your post.

"Bike bodies just aren't suitable for cars! "

How can i take that out of context. You have just announced to the world that bike TBs are not suitable for cars.

.

Point taken. What I should have written (and meant to imply) was that unmodified bike throttle bodies are not suitable for cars.

[Mark V8]

Graph from the I4 engine fitted with GSXR750 throttle bodies a in pic above. 46mm throttle plates and nice and short to save cutting the bulk head



Very usable as an every day car

Mark

[DanW@FastFord]

Originally Posted by V8 EsCos

Graph from the I4 engine fitted with GSXR750 throttle bodies a in pic above. 46mm throttle plates and nice and short to save cutting the bulk head

Ok "unmodified bike throttle bodies are not suitable for cars, except GSXR750 bodies on I4 engines"

[Mark V8]

A 1000cc bike engine pulling 12,000 rpm pumps 6,000 litres of air per minute assuming 100% VE

A 2000cc car engine pulling 6,000 rpm pumps 6,000 litres of air per minute assuming 100% VE

Pretty good case for using bike bodies from my point of view, they are fairly cheap and come in plenty of sizes.

Mark

[jonboisescort]

bike carbs rule

after nothing but problems with the old carbs i decided to start again
with another set off a gsxr 750 ??
they are 36mm were as the old ones were 34mm carbs
i have used the old manifold for now

they main problem i had was with the fuel pressure being to high form the mechanical pump
so sourced a r1 fuel pump off ebay lastnight and collected that today
they are prity much ready to go back on just need to get a mountain bike gear cable

price of new setup
gsxr carbs 36mm with trumpets £50 :Q
r1 fuel pump £25
inlet manifold £20
other little pices £10
total £105