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Old 03-06-2011, 09:55 PM   #1
turboRS
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Default 3 phase Electric Main Fuses????? Electricians Question!

Alrite chaps, basically i have just started to rent a council owned premises but
I HAVE NO ELECTRIC!!!
The council have sent their electrician down today to have look and found that the 3 main supply fuses (which feed the fuse board) are missing inside the blocks!! Apparently he/ they cant replace them fuses and it is down to the electric supplier to change!
So i phone British Gas ( the current supplier ) to find out if they have removed the fuses only to be told that as far as they are aware the electrics is still up and running and still energized!! Obviously the previous tenant removed them for some reason!!
Any way it seems that it is going to take me basically a MONTH before i can get my supply and at a cost of £200 by British Gas for 3 poxy fuses!!
What i want to know is,
Can i just get an independant electrician to change these fuses and how much should i be paying? Or is this something that has to be carried out by the robbing C**TS that supply the electric!!

Im buggered as i cant do anything with out electric !!
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:03 PM   #2
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Default main fuses

not really supposed to go near it but seal is broken already i take it .pull out fuse holder and bring ti your electrical wholesale they will have em .in ireland they are normally a 80 amp hrc fuse cylinder shaped.hope this helps
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:03 PM   #3
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erm, you need to safely cut the power feed to the fuse box first, i have changed these in the past as an apprentice sparky, but no power to site at the time.
electrical supplier needs to change these safely.
however it can be done, but make sure you have a medic on standby if you get thrown back violently :blub:
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:22 PM   #4
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i changed the ones in my old workshop allthough tecnically i shouldnt have electrical wholesaler wanted 17 quid per fuse!!! my mate who is a sparky got me some for 36 pence each lol
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Old 03-06-2011, 10:27 PM   #5
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Think you'll probably find that its the electric companies property i.e. the incoming cable and the fuses holders, it becomes yours once it leaves the fuse holder. So when you start messing with them they'll proper get the hump. On a less official route, yeah pull em out and smash some new fuses in. Safe to do so but only if the rest of the electrics are okay. If british gs reckon its still live anyway then youve got nowt to lose, try new fuses and if it works game on. Id have a sparky check over the rest of the install but it sounds like your council man probably covered that anyway. Safest/quickest way for you I should imagine is put new fuses in and get council back out to give rest a going over. Involving the rec is just going to be a massive pain in the arse.
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Old 03-06-2011, 11:04 PM   #6
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Yes the security straps/ seals are missing!!
the fuses are 80 / 100A series 5 type II b 415V
I was actually wondering if its safe to push new fuses in!! being as the feed end is still powered / live!!
Iv got someone coming round tomorrow to have a look, hopefully he can supply and fit!!
British Gas will do a SITE VISIT for free which takes 10 working days, only to report exactly what iv already told them! They will then update their system, and only then can they send someone round to RE-ENERGIZE the system at a cost of anything from £200+ This will take a further GOD KNOWS HOW MANY DAYS!!!
At the minute i am stuck with an empty workshop, and cant get my ramp and other equipment delivered and fitted untill i have power NOR can i start to earn some money!!
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Old 03-06-2011, 11:09 PM   #7
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get something rubber to attach the fuses to and wear rubber washing up gloves n wellies and them poke them in gently ?
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Old 03-06-2011, 11:16 PM   #8
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so they are charging you for a service which you cannot use????

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Old 03-06-2011, 11:40 PM   #9
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just pull the fuses mate they are in a ceramic casing so your not going to get a belt unless you go poking your fingers in the sockets which im sure you wont lol
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Old 03-06-2011, 11:46 PM   #10
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the council have said they will see if they can get it sorted otherwise they will emburst me with a couple weeks rent free to cover my costs!! either way i still agree with u in that they should have done these checks before they accepted new tenants.
they're all cunts if u ask me!!
i suppose this is why their rates are pretty cheap at the mo!! and probably explains why most of their units are empty!! lol
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:03 AM   #11
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rates round my way are free for 2 years for new businesses you should check with yours too they tried to charge me for rates when i first started up till my landlord told me to contact them, doesnt actually matter wether you are an actual business or just doing it for a hobby either
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:20 AM   #12
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rates round my way are free for 2 years for new businesses you should check with yours too they tried to charge me for rates when i first started up till my landlord told me to contact them, doesnt actually matter wether you are an actual business or just doing it for a hobby either
do you mean business rates? I will be getting whats called SMALL BUSINESS RATES RELIEF! so basically i will have to pay next to nothing rates wise! But i have to pay rent and service charge quarterly. obviously water rates and electric is down to me! its my first ever business venture and first time tenancy so its all virgin territory for me!!
i didnt realise just how much is involved in order to start up a little place!
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:24 AM   #13
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yes mate business rates im entitled to small business relief anyway but due to being a fresh start up business i get two years free, water and electric etc... still have to be paid of course.
my accountant was telling me today tho that this may not be a regional thing and may only be being offered in areas where the goverment are encouriging businesses to start to help develop that area better
got to be worth an ask tho as like i say at first they sent me a bill but when i rang and spoke to the rates people they confirmed that i wouldnt have anything to pay for two years
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:28 AM   #14
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and yes there is a shit load to consider when starting a business mate it aint easy im just lucky my business partner has done it all before very succesfully and only stopped due to having heart problems of which he is now fine
my advice is get a very good accountant and shop around for what bank to use for a business account as if you play them against each other you can end up with free banking etc...
also take the advice off as many people as you can along the way
and remember dont expect to pay yourself a lot in the first year or so and even when you can afford to pay yourself well just dont (nudge nudge wink wink) hence the accountant lol
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Old 04-06-2011, 07:03 AM   #15
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Some great business advice from botters,wish I'd had free business rates,I got fuck all from neath/port talbot council,however sandfields port talbot is a shit hole,makes "the scheme" look like Beverly hills!!!

Back to the electric question,please ignore 90% of the replies above in relation to you blowing yourself up,medics and rubber gloves their no different to the fuses you change in your house,as stated above,their in ceramic or plastic holders so just fit the fuse inti the holder,place holder in and you should get your power.
I'd say the guy who took the fuses out but left the holders behind did the right thing,plenty of cunts out there that would just take the holders out completely leaving the incomer live,taking the fuses out and leaving the holders in is part of the safety system where I work.
Try tlc for fuses,should be one in brumland somewhere,always good for prices.
Don't be afraid of 3phase either,you should get 415 between phases and 240 between phase and neutral.
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Old 04-06-2011, 07:16 AM   #16
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Also if you are going to fit new fuses make sure your main switch on your disboard is off so there's no load on fuses when they are put in.
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Old 04-06-2011, 07:21 AM   #17
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Just a bit of advice, if you do replace the fuses yourself please remove any load on the system before you start, i mean switch off the main switch in the consumer unit, atleast you will reduce the risk of any arc or flash if there is a problem somewhere.you never know!!

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Old 04-06-2011, 07:22 AM   #18
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Also if you are going to fit new fuses make sure your main switch on your disboard is off so there's no load on fuses when they are put in.


Dam beat me to it!!
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Old 04-06-2011, 08:44 AM   #19
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^^^ As above, dont worry about blowing yourself up, just not going to happen, even with a dead short on the system an 80 amp fuse is gonna clear it in millis-seconds and give a little flash thats all.
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:01 AM   #20
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Are you sure they weren't removed for a reason? it should be down to the supplier to sort out, we had a problem of a unit not paying once and we knew it we pulled the main fuses that the supplier had to come out and not only replace them but they have to test the electrics as well

its a 30 second job and you might get someone to do it you, but its one of them jobs you know if something goes wrong someone is in big trouble for messing with something that they shouldn't have been
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:05 AM   #21
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Are you sure they weren't removed for a reason? it should be down to the supplier to sort out, we had a problem of a unit not paying once and we knew it we pulled the main fuses that the supplier had to come out and not only replace them but they have to test the electrics as well

its a 30 second job and you might get someone to do it you, but its one of them jobs you know if something goes wrong someone is in big trouble for messing with something that they shouldn't have been

supplier (NEDL) wont test the instalation round here,contractor has to sign a form saying its up to BS7671

they will only connect up to their engineers switch and its up to the client to sort after that
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:00 AM   #22
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TurboRS,

Please leave it to your supplier to put right!!!! Yes, people do tinker with fuses and I've even seen 22mm copper pipe used as a fuse!!!
3 phase is deadly; ask the families of the 4 - 5 people killed every year in the UK from arc flashes.
It's not just a flash, the effects are dramatic. Almost instantaneously the temperature rises by around 20,000 degrees c in the vicinity of the arc. This vaporises copper conductors and since the volume of the vapour is 67,000 times that of metal, an explosion results. Secondary effects include the expulsion of molten globules of copper, an intensely bright flash of light and the generation of pressure waves.
It's not just a case of putting a fuse in and bobs your uncle. The installation requires dead testing first and then live testing afterwards. How would you feel if you energised the supply and a friend or family member received a fatal electric shock??? Not to mention the manslaughter charge to follow!!!!
The supply cable and cut-out belong to your distribution company (YEDL, NEDL, EDF etc). The tails from the cut-out to the meter and the meter itself belong to the supply company (Eon, British gas, Sothern electric etc) the remaining part of the installation belongs to the property owner and is their responsibility.

If you haven't guessed, I work for a supply company and we don't charge for re-energising the supply. We re-energise the supply and fit an isolator so we can leave the installation for the electrician to test before they switch the isolator on. This is so there is no come back on us if there is a problem with the installation or there is an incident.

I'd suggest you don’t change the fuses, you change supplier and leave well alone. Trust me, I've seen the consequences!!!!!

Regards

Martin
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:19 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Martin S2 Turbo View Post
TurboRS,

Please leave it to your supplier to put right!!!! Yes, people do tinker with fuses and I've even seen 22mm copper pipe used as a fuse!!!
3 phase is deadly; ask the families of the 4 - 5 people killed every year in the UK from arc flashes.
It's not just a flash, the effects are dramatic. Almost instantaneously the temperature rises by around 20,000 degrees c in the vicinity of the arc. This vaporises copper conductors and since the volume of the vapour is 67,000 times that of metal, an explosion results. Secondary effects include the expulsion of molten globules of copper, an intensely bright flash of light and the generation of pressure waves.
It's not just a case of putting a fuse in and bobs your uncle. The installation requires dead testing first and then live testing afterwards. How would you feel if you energised the supply and a friend or family member received a fatal electric shock??? Not to mention the manslaughter charge to follow!!!!
The supply cable and cut-out belong to your distribution company (YEDL, NEDL, EDF etc). The tails from the cut-out to the meter and the meter itself belong to the supply company (Eon, British gas, Sothern electric etc) the remaining part of the installation belongs to the property owner and is their responsibility.

If you haven't guessed, I work for a supply company and we don't charge for re-energising the supply. We re-energise the supply and fit an isolator so we can leave the installation for the electrician to test before they switch the isolator on. This is so there is no come back on us if there is a problem with the installation or there is an incident.

I'd suggest you don’t change the fuses, you change supplier and leave well alone. Trust me, I've seen the consequences!!!!!

Regards

Martin
Fuck me, you look on the bright side of life dont you!!! Ive seen incidents of 65000A creating the affect you describe when sustained over 3 cycles. 80 Amp through a HRC fuse is nothing like you describe, stop scare mongering!!
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:25 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin S2 Turbo View Post
TurboRS,

Please leave it to your supplier to put right!!!! Yes, people do tinker with fuses and I've even seen 22mm copper pipe used as a fuse!!!
3 phase is deadly; ask the families of the 4 - 5 people killed every year in the UK from arc flashes.
It's not just a flash, the effects are dramatic. Almost instantaneously the temperature rises by around 20,000 degrees c in the vicinity of the arc. This vaporises copper conductors and since the volume of the vapour is 67,000 times that of metal, an explosion results. Secondary effects include the expulsion of molten globules of copper, an intensely bright flash of light and the generation of pressure waves.
It's not just a case of putting a fuse in and bobs your uncle. The installation requires dead testing first and then live testing afterwards. How would you feel if you energised the supply and a friend or family member received a fatal electric shock??? Not to mention the manslaughter charge to follow!!!!
The supply cable and cut-out belong to your distribution company (YEDL, NEDL, EDF etc). The tails from the cut-out to the meter and the meter itself belong to the supply company (Eon, British gas, Sothern electric etc) the remaining part of the installation belongs to the property owner and is their responsibility.

If you haven't guessed, I work for a supply company and we don't charge for re-energising the supply. We re-energise the supply and fit an isolator so we can leave the installation for the electrician to test before they switch the isolator on. This is so there is no come back on us if there is a problem with the installation or there is an incident.

I'd suggest you don’t change the fuses, you change supplier and leave well alone. Trust me, I've seen the consequences!!!!!

Regards

Martin
Well if the supplier got off their Arse and went to the job,there would b no danger if him sitting his self would there ??

the fella simply wants to get on and do some work
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:39 AM   #25
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i go with just fit the fuses as some people have stated but MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS OFF, i.e all the other distribution boards as if you have any sort of load on the circuit it'll ark as you put the fuse in, make sure the fuse holders are not cracked or broken for your own saftey then just push them in

i dunno why they are saying they need to turn the power off to the incoming mains as i'v seen many supplier engineers fit fuses whilst it's live, the last big job i did the edf bloke came in live tested the incomer for phase rotation then fitted the main fuses live but found the fuse holders had been bent whilst edf themselves had fitted it so he proceeded to bend back the incoming terminals with a long piece of wood to make the holders fit
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:43 AM   #26
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Fuck me, you look on the bright side of life dont you!!! Ive seen incidents of 65000A creating the affect you describe when sustained over 3 cycles. 80 Amp through a HRC fuse is nothing like you describe, stop scare mongering!!
Not scare mongering m8, just don’t play russian roulette!!
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:46 AM   #27
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Well if the supplier got off their Arse and went to the job,there would b no danger if him sitting his self would there ??

the fella simply wants to get on and do some work
Totally agree m8, that's why I said change supplier
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:45 PM   #28
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TurboRS,

Please leave it to your supplier to put right!!!! Yes, people do tinker with fuses and I've even seen 22mm copper pipe used as a fuse!!!
3 phase is deadly; ask the families of the 4 - 5 people killed every year in the UK from arc flashes.

It's not just a case of putting a fuse in and bobs your uncle. The installation requires dead testing first and then live testing afterwards. How would you feel if you energised the supply and a friend or family member received a fatal electric shock??? Not to mention the manslaughter charge to follow!!!!
The supply cable and cut-out belong to your distribution company (YEDL, NEDL, EDF etc). The tails from the cut-out to the meter and the meter itself belong to the supply company (Eon, British gas, Sothern electric etc) the remaining part of the installation belongs to the property owner and is their responsibility.

If you haven't guessed, I work for a supply company and we don't charge for re-energising the supply. We re-energise the supply and fit an isolator so we can leave the installation for the electrician to test before they switch the isolator on. This is so there is no come back on us if there is a problem with the installation or there is an incident.

I'd suggest you don’t change the fuses, you change supplier and leave well alone. Trust me, I've seen the consequences!!!!!

Regards

Martin
Completely agree with you there mate, and it would seem I do the same job as you

And I also have seen the consequences, Scottish Power auditor with two fingers missing on his right hand from putting back in a fuse carrier and burn marks on his face, not pretty!

In reality its a very easy job to fit the fuses back in, but its also very easy to do it wrong if you dont know what your doing!
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:52 PM   #29
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Cheers M8,

Glad someone else has seen what can happen if it goes wrong.
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:38 PM   #30
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Fuck me, you look on the bright side of life dont you!!! Ive seen incidents of 65000A creating the affect you describe when sustained over 3 cycles. 80 Amp through a HRC fuse is nothing like you describe, stop scare mongering!!
Im not sure what your saying here that nothing can go wrong and if it does it wont be that bad anyway?
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:45 PM   #31
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thanx for all the comments chaps. really appreciated.
the thing is i phoned N Power because i want to change to them supplying, but apparently they cant do the changeover untill the system is energized!
and even then its a 28 day wait before they are in control!! and god knows wat their price is going to be!
the one thing that the council contracted electrician did notice and rectified was the fuses at the isolator switch had copper cable instead of 60 amp fuse wire!!

like CRAGRAT said all I want to do is be able to get my things organized and get on with work!! at the minute im unemployed with no income or benefits, im spending my hard earned savings on this venture and i cant even start to earn any money!!!
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:54 PM   #32
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Cheers M8,

Glad someone else has seen what can happen if it goes wrong.
I agree that it can happen but I would say just putting three fuses back into the holders that are already there and putting them in to an unloaded supply it would be highly unlikely to get bad flash.
I work in industry and I've never been concerned about removing and replacing fuses of 80a rating on an unloaded supply and I probably change them on a regular basis.
If the lads worried then of course get someone else to do it but frankly I think it's a bit ott,he could always use gauntlets and a face shield if he's that concerned,not that I've ever seen any electricity board boys do it.
I think it's a case of practical vs theory here,in theory you can die from less than 1a of electricity and iirc under 50volts,but if you've ever worked in any sort of industry I guarantee you've had a shock of some description on the low voltage side of things,up to say 110v,I know I have several times despite being careful,but sometimes it's not practical to completely isolate a supply,sometimes you need to live test,ok not by shoving your fingers in the hole but it's just not always the case that things can be done 110% by the book.
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:01 PM   #33
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It's all about reducing the risk. If it does go wrong then it's possibly one hell of a price to pay!
We've probably all had electric shocks in the past, but I'd say we've all been lucky to be still here reading this post. It only takes one fatal shock and your 6foot under.
You have to respect electricity, otherwise it won't respect you!
It's all too easy to say "just stick fuses in, you'll be alright". You don't know the installation; it's not your life on the line!
I get called out as an emergency to re-energise supplies for customers and the Group Standard set by OFGEM states that when a customer requests a job, we must be able to offer an appointment within 14 days.

Take a look at the video. I'm not saying this would happen, but it's what 3 phase has the potential to do.


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Old 04-06-2011, 03:02 PM   #34
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Im not sure what your saying here that nothing can go wrong and if it does it wont be that bad anyway?
Just the whole copper exploding etc and severe burns. When we type test switchgear to destruction and ram 65kA down it we see some amazing devastation. Putting a fuse into service on a small unit with no load is not going to hurt anyone. Id trust my 7 year old to do it.
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:13 PM   #35
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Just the whole copper exploding etc and severe burns. When we type test switchgear to destruction and ram 65kA down it we see some amazing devastation. Putting a fuse into service on a small unit with no load is not going to hurt anyone. Id trust my 7 year old to do it.

like i said though no one knows why the fuses aren't in to start with there could be anything wrong with it, while 99% of the time it mine be fine just to power back up, for me to say to someone just go and buy some fuses and do it yourself would be pretty silly without seeing the place

your telling someone who isn't trained/qualified or leaglly allowed, to go messing/fiddling with 415v 3 phase, yes it might seem easy yes im sure most of the time everything will be ok BUT things do go wrong/happen

i guess where all different though
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:18 PM   #36
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Your at it again! Hes not putting a copper bar across all three conductors, he'll be putting in three fuses, that in the unlikely event theres a fault on his system will blow in milliseconds and prevent any damage to persons or equipment. Electricity (not just 3 phase, single phase to earth is just as bad) can be devastating, its not to be taken for granted, but in the case of the OP theres nothing to get scared of. Martin, quick question, do you actually work WITH electricity?
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:25 PM   #37
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Just the whole copper exploding etc and severe burns. When we type test switchgear to destruction and ram 65kA down it we see some amazing devastation. Putting a fuse into service on a small unit with no load is not going to hurt anyone. Id trust my 7 year old to do it.
Well, I wouldn't trust a child putting a plug in a socket, but that's me being responsible I suppose.

Does not hurt anyone!!!! As Paul said, two fingers missing!!! Think that would be a reminder for life.

You go down the motorway at 120 mph with your eyes shut, you'll be ok!!!
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:34 PM   #38
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I know people that have died, my boss had to clean his friends remains out of a cubicle, Ive known father and son suffer extreme burns when spiking the wrong HV cable. Its dangerous shit. This isnt. This has gone way off topic. I think the OP has the advice he needs.
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:35 PM   #39
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Your at it again! Hes not putting a copper bar across all three conductors, he'll be putting in three fuses, that in the unlikely event theres a fault on his system will blow in milliseconds and prevent any damage to persons or equipment. Electricity (not just 3 phase, single phase to earth is just as bad) can be devastating, its not to be taken for granted, but in the case of the OP theres nothing to get scared of. Martin, quick question, do you actually work WITH electricity?
Read again, it's what 3 phase has the potential to do.

I'm not answering the last question!!!!

At the end of the day, things are put in place to prevent injury to people and equipment. If anyone wants to do their own thing then no one can stop them. They've asked for advice and it's upto them if they want to take it.
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:35 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by StephenC View Post
Your at it again! Hes not putting a copper bar across all three conductors, he'll be putting in three fuses, that in the unlikely event theres a fault on his system will blow in milliseconds and prevent any damage to persons or equipment. Electricity (not just 3 phase, single phase to earth is just as bad) can be devastating, its not to be taken for granted, but in the case of the OP theres nothing to get scared of. Martin, quick question, do you actually work WITH electricity?

As im sure your aware there doesn't need to be a fault on the system to cause damage to anyone or anything, exposed live ends damaged equipment would not trip anything and who would be any wiser?

you worded it perfectly above " its not to be taken for granted "

So again i ask do people really advise someone to do something there not qualified to do which is also illegal?
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Old 04-06-2011, 03:35 PM
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