A Stark Warning to all Modified Car Owners.... - Page 2

Garage19 · 22-12-2005, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveEscos

hmmm.. my dyno plot is full of 12's! ??

12.6 ish is technically correct for max power but if that was my money i had invested in that engine i would be running pretty much a point richer than that over the whole scale!

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Anonymous · 22-12-2005, 01:08 PM

Airflow in the car is greater, so potentially if it was going to go either way i would expect it to be LEANER on the road than on the dyno, so i cant explain why dyno readings might be higher numbers (leaner) as its not what i would expect.

But ive never had the luxury of owning a dyno to play with im afraid so im kind of guessing really mate!

Stu will know of course

Mike Rainbird · 22-12-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveEscos

ok, stu's alarm went off at afr 12.1 up to 12.4

my dyno chart shows my entire air fuel range at 12.4 - 12.7

whats going on there then?

or is it different rules for dyno runs?

No, this is why it is essential that the fuelling / propensity for det is checked in the car. Read Stu's post about possible changes that occur with the change in environment

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

Quote:

so whats the point of the dyno if it all has to be double checked on the road?

A good question, common too.

All development work is finalised in the real world, even on modern cars like, say, the new BMW M3. Do you realise the new M3 is ALREADY on its seventh software revision? Yes, thats its MAPPING, and its been on sale for 1/2 a year, BMW keep updating as the REAL WORLD finds faults in there original layout, and they update it whilst its in for servicing..

Once the cars get out into the real world, there are various factors to take into consideration that a Dyno simply cannot prepare you for. Factors such as:

Restricted intake airflow
LESS Restricted intake airflow
Restricted engine cooling
LESS Restricted engine cooling
Restricted intercooler function
LESS Restricted intercooler function
Restricted exhaust system
LESS restrictive exhaust system?
Higher ECT's
Lower ECT's
Higher ACT's
Lower ECT's
Higher EGT's than present in static dyno area.
Lower EGT's than present in static dyno area.

The list goes on, and these are just dynamic factors right off the top of my head... There are better ones:

The engine is now fuelled via your own fuel system.. can it play the game? Or is it failing to supply the rail with pressure at 7000RPM due to a shonky regulator or a regulator pipe clip slightly leaking?

The ecu you had mapped at 13.7volts is now powered by your own electrical system... is it still 13.7volts at 2.5bar of boost?

I could go on, but if i need to, please all just sell your cars and buy Micra's......

Anonymous · 22-12-2005, 01:13 PM

Dave, by the way, peak pwoer occurs at the sort of numbers you have there.

If i was operating a dyno and wanted a big number for the customer to tell his mates, i would run those figures briefly to get the numbers, then dial it in a little safer on the road.

Its called "pub horsepower" mate

Garage19 · 22-12-2005, 01:13 PM

Dave,

Whos dyno is that and are they the same people that mapped your car?

It may be possible that the lambda sensor is at fault. They do degrade over time if they see alot of fuel additives and rich mixtures.

**Stu @ M Developments** · 22-12-2005, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dumped

Stu - why is the fault away once the boost goes down/revs up as presumably peak power is up at 6500odds so peak fuel should be needed there?
Looks more like some sort of regulator fault than pump from the 1st charts but then your new pump sorted it minted

Just seems odd - I would ask if the problem was repeatable through rev range like that but after seeing it once i doubted you wanted to know lol

I would think that the actual problem i had was a pump that no longer liked to flow at high pressure. Remember that with a rising rate system as most turbos have, your fuel pressure rises with boost.

Example:
Std YB at idle. 3.0 bar

With 0.1 bar boost = 3.6 bar

With 1 bar boost = 4.5 bar

With 2 bar boost = 5.5 bar

Seems my old pump flows fine at 5.3bar but not anymore than that, this incidentally is where the 044 scores. it loves huge pressures. lol.

(Note.. remember that as pressure goes up, so does current draw to finish off your shonky 20yr old wiring loom)

Damo V · 22-12-2005, 01:22 PM

On the same Dyno as Daves...

????

Anonymous · 22-12-2005, 01:26 PM

looks like the same map but .1 psi higher fuel pressure

Thats harveys dyno i take it? as the readout looks the same as dougs

Damo V · 22-12-2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chip-3door

looks like the same map but .1 psi higher fuel pressure

Fuel pressure?

Damo V · 22-12-2005, 01:28 PM

BTW different turbo different injectors, one has ALS one doesnt

Anonymous · 22-12-2005, 01:32 PM

Damo, i was joking, its obvious from the torque figures tehy are totally different specs!

AlexF · 22-12-2005, 01:35 PM

I run my mini at 10.4:1 AFR on full boost

dumped · 22-12-2005, 02:14 PM

Makes sense stu - just my initial thoughts out loud - as you have shown the pump sorted it

Kev.H · 22-12-2005, 03:22 PM

Stu

Is there anything to setup and check on a Focus RS

How often should a turbo car be setup in general

Fanks

Anonymous · 22-12-2005, 03:23 PM

on the focus you have
knock sensor
airflow meter
lamda sensor

So the ECU is a lot more "clued up" on any changes that happen and its far less of a risk.

Kev.H · 22-12-2005, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chip-3door

on the focus you have
knock sensor
airflow meter
lamda sensor

So the ECU is a lot more "clued up" on any changes that happen and its far less of a risk.

So I should be abit safe then

I also have me bluefin fault reader which i have plugged in a couple of times after i have re bluefin'd for whatever reason but touch would it hasnt found anything wrong to date

But she has only just clocked over onto 7k

AJC · 22-12-2005, 03:28 PM

you told me to get mine checked every 6k or so stu so i will
booking it in pretty soon

GARETH T · 22-12-2005, 04:07 PM

i love the idea of having a warning light for a/f ratio

mmmm maybe i might buy one of these myself

Anonymous · 22-12-2005, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series1AJC

you told me to get mine checked every 6k or so stu so i will
booking it in pretty soon

bloody hell, bet Stu wishes he had more customers like you then mate!

YBP · 22-12-2005, 04:58 PM

Guess i´ll go uprated pump before i get my car on the dynapac this winter...

I dont have a warninglight for a/f ratio, but for the EGT which i believe is the most important one.
Because you can have any a/f you want as long as the EGT doesn´t rise to a critical level.

It´s the high temps that melts stuff, not the a/f itself.

GARETH T · 22-12-2005, 05:37 PM

but whats the response time of your egt gauge/sensor?

Fast Guy · 22-12-2005, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

I like the dynojet for its instant datalogging at the flick of a switch, as seen here, and its ability to WARN you of danger, so no need to EVER look at the gauge itself.

Is it this one Stu?

http://www.dynojet.co.uk/wideband/

Quote:

Originally Posted by YBP

It´s the high temps that melts stuff, not the a/f itself.

Doesn't a lean mixture lead to those higher temps? Hence the point of an AFR gauge

YBP · 22-12-2005, 05:42 PM

More than fast enough to avoid meltdown in my opinion.

If it had to be quicker than what it is, I wont be able to let my foot of the throttle fast enough to avoid damage anyways.

Anonymous · 22-12-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Guy

Doesn't a lean mixture lead to those higher temps? Hence the point of an AFR gauge

Its a contributing factor, but its not a straight relationship

Billabong · 22-12-2005, 06:17 PM

cozzymatt · 22-12-2005, 06:25 PM

so what is there to set up (adjust) on a small turbo escos?

M Brian · 22-12-2005, 06:27 PM

we always like a picture!!

good one that is!!

billabong - you werent on the a47 near peterborough the other day were you? coulda sworn I saw who I thought was you lol

Billabong · 22-12-2005, 06:31 PM

Melv, last Friday per chance?

markk · 22-12-2005, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chip-3door

Quote:

Originally Posted by Series1AJC

you told me to get mine checked every 6k or so stu so i will
booking it in pretty soon

bloody hell, bet Stu wishes he had more customers like you then mate!

he has

i have mine checked approx every 2000 miles

generally twice a year - both maps

M Brian · 22-12-2005, 09:38 PM

yeah I think it woulda been - I was just nipping home from work to get my fridge delivered, unusual i see daylight at the moment lol

where does the datalog come from? the Afr gauge or is there an add on you need to datalog?

toff · 23-12-2005, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Guy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

I like the dynojet for its instant datalogging at the flick of a switch, as seen here, and its ability to WARN you of danger, so no need to EVER look at the gauge itself.

Is it this one Stu?

http://www.dynojet.co.uk/wideband/:

thats the one ave got , just need to weld the boss in

Rick · 23-12-2005, 12:39 AM

LM1 shits on any other Wideband bar the ECM "technically". Most important gauge in the car for me - i can program in any combination of conditons to warn me - ie IF MAP is > 15psi, and rpm > 4000 & afr > 12.5 then fire the rev limiter....

**Stu @ M Developments** · 23-12-2005, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fast Guy

Is it this one Stu?

http://www.dynojet.co.uk/wideband/

Thats the one pal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cozzymatt

so what is there to set up (adjust) on a small turbo escos?

EEC Escorts are quite susceptible to poor software in teh ecu, bad fuel pumps and airflow meter inaccuracies. They definately DO NOT melt down as often as the lareg turbo due to the addition of its air mass calculation but will still do so if you have issues... a failed fuel reg will still do £3k of damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M Brian

where does the datalog come from? the Afr gauge or is there an add on you need to datalog?

Its part and parcel of the Dynojet. Flick a switch and go for it and it logs at around 10HZ for 10 mins, as many as you want, so say flick, 3rd gear run flick off to end, then do another 9 as road permits, download when you get home... job done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

LM1 shits on any other Wideband bar the ECM "technically". Most important gauge in the car for me - i can program in any combination of conditons to warn me - ie IF MAP is > 15psi, and rpm > 4000 & afr > 12.5 then fire the rev limiter....

How do you figure that Rick?

I have tested them BOTH back to back with a national Magazine in tow, so i know how accurate they BOTH are. And thats exactly what my software does, i think to be honest most of em do, but i dont know of any with the warning light, which is the feature i like the most.

**Sanchez_** · 23-12-2005, 09:21 AM

stu cheers for this topic gives me a comparison of where my car should be i just fitted a new pump standard one tho so looks like ill be buyin a 044 soon lol

cheers jay

**Stu @ M Developments** · 23-12-2005, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YBP

Guess i´ll go uprated pump before i get my car on the dynapac this winter...

I dont have a warninglight for a/f ratio, but for the EGT which i believe is the most important one.
Because you can have any a/f you want as long as the EGT doesn´t rise to a critical level.

It´s the high temps that melts stuff, not the a/f itself.

You must remember at all times, whilst the burn temperature of the mixture is a real issue and certainly teh main reason we run richer than peak power, the advance curve of the motor changes depending not only the calorific value of the fuel but also its mixture ratio and its cylinder distribution. Leaning 0.5 of a ratio can bring on Detonation as the mixture starts to burn faster making you over advanced.

Your EGT gauge will normally not respond fast enough to show detonation, especially if its in a low speed area that isnt showing high EGT's anyway, this you then not knowing anything is wrong. EGT monitoring is superb and certainly has its place, but it sure isnt a "substitute" for an AFR monitor, more an ideal partner IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaycos

stu cheers for this topic gives me a comparison of where my car should be

I thought you might find it handy

**Sanchez_** · 23-12-2005, 10:17 AM

stu is there anychance of rounding up the recent topics and putin them in tech forum

cheers jay

**Stu @ M Developments** · 23-12-2005, 10:22 AM

yeah, as long as someone collects up the links i will move em

YBP · 23-12-2005, 11:25 AM

Noooooooooooooooooo! Then I won´t be able to read em.

FASTdan · 23-12-2005, 11:29 AM

The warning light idea must be reasonably simple to apply to any AFR meter with auxiliary outputs anyway? ie the LM-1 can drive a narrow band DISPLAY as a true AFR reading via its analogue output. So surely a simple circuit that illuminates a warning light at the correct voltage from this output would do the job?

**Stu @ M Developments** · 23-12-2005, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FASTdan

The warning light idea must be reasonably simple to apply to any AFR meter with auxiliary outputs anyway? ie the LM-1 can drive a narrow band DISPLAY as a true AFR reading via its analogue output. So surely a simple circuit that illuminates a warning light at the correct voltage from this output would do the job?

No.
Otherwise it would come on whenever you reached this low AFR, thus part throttle, idle, cruise, blah blah...

It needs some intelligence to be useful. EG:

Over 22psi + over 60deg throttle + over 3000rpm + leaner than 12.2 = ENABLE.

Anyhow, anythings possible, was just making the point that it does it out of the box and does it well, so its my preffered unit, i also like all the others.

22-12-2005, 01:13 PM	#45
Garage19 PassionFord Post Troll Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Nr Ipswich Posts: 3,438 Rep Power: 11	Dave, Whos dyno is that and are they the same people that mapped your car? It may be possible that the lambda sensor is at fault. They do degrade over time if they see alot of fuel additives and rich mixtures. __________________ nice try

22-12-2005, 01:22 PM	#47
Damo V PassionFord Post Whore!! Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: May 2003 Location: SE Posts: 9,231 Rep Power: 18	On the same Dyno as Daves... ???? __________________ M3NTE Rebuild Underway (click for link) Sig by "The Bong"

22-12-2005, 01:28 PM	#50
Damo V PassionFord Post Whore!! Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: May 2003 Location: SE Posts: 9,231 Rep Power: 18	BTW different turbo different injectors, one has ALS one doesnt __________________ M3NTE Rebuild Underway (click for link) Sig by "The Bong"

22-12-2005, 01:35 PM	#52
AlexF 10K+ Poster!! Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: May 2003 Location: Newbury Posts: 13,127 Rep Power: 22	I run my mini at 10.4:1 AFR on full boost __________________ "Judging by the car you have chosen, you are a motorist of a special breed, and you are probably no novice when it comes to automobiles." . . . 928 S4 Owner's Manual 1987

22-12-2005, 03:28 PM	#57
AJC Lord of Longridge Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (4) Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Preston, Lancs Posts: 10,906 Rep Power: 18	you told me to get mine checked every 6k or so stu so i will booking it in pretty soon __________________ Cheers, Andy 11.93 1/4 mile @ 116.9mph - Santa pod Lancashire RSOC Group Chairman

22-12-2005, 01:08 PM	#42
Anonymous Banned Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 28 Rep Power: 0	Airflow in the car is greater, so potentially if it was going to go either way i would expect it to be LEANER on the road than on the dyno, so i cant explain why dyno readings might be higher numbers (leaner) as its not what i would expect. But ive never had the luxury of owning a dyno to play with im afraid so im kind of guessing really mate! Stu will know of course

22-12-2005, 01:26 PM	#48
Anonymous Banned Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 28 Rep Power: 0	looks like the same map but .1 psi higher fuel pressure Thats harveys dyno i take it? as the readout looks the same as dougs

22-12-2005, 01:32 PM	#51
Anonymous Banned Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 28 Rep Power: 0	Damo, i was joking, its obvious from the torque figures tehy are totally different specs!

22-12-2005, 02:14 PM	#53
dumped Advanced PassionFord User Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,978 Rep Power: 10	Makes sense stu - just my initial thoughts out loud - as you have shown the pump sorted it

22-12-2005, 03:22 PM	#54
Kev.H PassionFord Post Whore!! Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 6,618 Rep Power: 15	Stu Is there anything to setup and check on a Focus RS How often should a turbo car be setup in general Fanks

22-12-2005, 03:23 PM	#55
Anonymous Banned Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 28 Rep Power: 0	on the focus you have knock sensor airflow meter lamda sensor So the ECU is a lot more "clued up" on any changes that happen and its far less of a risk.

22-12-2005, 04:07 PM	#58
GARETH T Professional Waffler Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: May 2003 Location: barry-south wales Posts: 30,675 Rep Power: 39	i love the idea of having a warning light for a/f ratio mmmm maybe i might buy one of these myself __________________

22-12-2005, 04:58 PM	#60
YBP Part of the Furniture Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NORWAY Posts: 189 Rep Power: 7	Guess i´ll go uprated pump before i get my car on the dynapac this winter... I dont have a warninglight for a/f ratio, but for the EGT which i believe is the most important one. Because you can have any a/f you want as long as the EGT doesn´t rise to a critical level. It´s the high temps that melts stuff, not the a/f itself. __________________

22-12-2005, 05:37 PM	#61
GARETH T Professional Waffler Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: May 2003 Location: barry-south wales Posts: 30,675 Rep Power: 39	but whats the response time of your egt gauge/sensor? __________________

22-12-2005, 05:42 PM	#63
YBP Part of the Furniture Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NORWAY Posts: 189 Rep Power: 7	More than fast enough to avoid meltdown in my opinion. If it had to be quicker than what it is, I wont be able to let my foot of the throttle fast enough to avoid damage anyways. __________________

22-12-2005, 06:17 PM	#65
Billabong PassionFord Post Whore!! Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: May 2003 Location: Northants Posts: 9,079 Rep Power: 18	__________________ 118-Bill-a-bong EsCos FOR SALE - Quick before I break it!

22-12-2005, 06:25 PM	#66
cozzymatt I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!! Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Shepshed, Leics Posts: 1,150 Rep Power: 9	so what is there to set up (adjust) on a small turbo escos?

22-12-2005, 06:27 PM	#67
M Brian PassionFord Post Whore!! Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: May 2003 Location: Peterborough Posts: 3,940 Rep Power: 12	we always like a picture!! good one that is!! billabong - you werent on the a47 near peterborough the other day were you? coulda sworn I saw who I thought was you lol __________________ MELV

22-12-2005, 06:31 PM	#68
Billabong PassionFord Post Whore!! Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: May 2003 Location: Northants Posts: 9,079 Rep Power: 18	Melv, last Friday per chance? __________________ 118-Bill-a-bong EsCos FOR SALE - Quick before I break it!

22-12-2005, 09:38 PM	#70
M Brian PassionFord Post Whore!! Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: May 2003 Location: Peterborough Posts: 3,940 Rep Power: 12	yeah I think it woulda been - I was just nipping home from work to get my fridge delivered, unusual i see daylight at the moment lol where does the datalog come from? the Afr gauge or is there an add on you need to datalog? __________________ MELV

23-12-2005, 12:39 AM	#72
Rick 15K+ Super Poster!! Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: May 2003 Location: Stockport, Cheshire Posts: 15,560 Rep Power: 24	LM1 shits on any other Wideband bar the ECM "technically". Most important gauge in the car for me - i can program in any combination of conditons to warn me - ie IF MAP is > 15psi, and rpm > 4000 & afr > 12.5 then fire the rev limiter.... __________________ Bespoke calibration and remapping, OEM & Aftermarket management

23-12-2005, 09:21 AM	#74
Sanchez_ Super Moderator Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (3) Join Date: May 2004 Location: south east Posts: 15,303 Rep Power: 23	stu cheers for this topic gives me a comparison of where my car should be i just fitted a new pump standard one tho so looks like ill be buyin a 044 soon lol cheers jay __________________

23-12-2005, 10:17 AM	#76
Sanchez_ Super Moderator Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (3) Join Date: May 2004 Location: south east Posts: 15,303 Rep Power: 23	stu is there anychance of rounding up the recent topics and putin them in tech forum cheers jay __________________

23-12-2005, 10:22 AM	#77
Stu @ M Developments PassionFords Creator Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (12) Join Date: May 2003 Location: Blackpool, UK Destination: Rev limiter Posts: 26,349 Rep Power: 36	yeah, as long as someone collects up the links i will move em __________________ Best Regards, Stu . Click here to read my tuning articles. . Click here to visit our Brand NEW webshop. Find us on FaceBook.

23-12-2005, 11:25 AM	#78
YBP Part of the Furniture Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: NORWAY Posts: 189 Rep Power: 7	Noooooooooooooooooo! Then I won´t be able to read em. __________________

23-12-2005, 11:29 AM	#79
FASTdan Regular Contributor Garage is empty, add now Trader Score: (0) Join Date: May 2003 Location: West Yorkshire Posts: 310 Rep Power: 9	The warning light idea must be reasonably simple to apply to any AFR meter with auxiliary outputs anyway? ie the LM-1 can drive a narrow band DISPLAY as a true AFR reading via its analogue output. So surely a simple circuit that illuminates a warning light at the correct voltage from this output would do the job?

23-12-2005, 11:38 AM
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