My 2wd still suprises me after 21years!
08-11-2016, 12:57 PM
#161
To be fair to the M£ in that Autocar article, it was slightly hobbled by being a Birds rhd conversion.
That meant it had a normal 325i rack which was 4.1 turns lock to lock rather than the 3.6 turns of the M3.
Also they had to hack the exhaust manifold around to get the rhd rack to fit which meant it was a bit strangled and around 10-15bhp down on the normal power.
Ian Godney's manifold on his M3 was a lot better solution. I've seen another one that was done for an Australian car that was a lot better resolved as well and meant minimal power loss.
I nearly bought a Birds conversion one a few years after my Sapphire as they were pretty cheap being 'modded' cars - missed out and got an E46 330 instead - if I'd have had it, it would have got a quicker rack and better manifold though.
Notwithstanding all the above, even the lhd cars, as they came from factory, never convincingly won over the Sapphire 2wd in the handling stakes when both cars were tested new though
That meant it had a normal 325i rack which was 4.1 turns lock to lock rather than the 3.6 turns of the M3.
Also they had to hack the exhaust manifold around to get the rhd rack to fit which meant it was a bit strangled and around 10-15bhp down on the normal power.
Ian Godney's manifold on his M3 was a lot better solution. I've seen another one that was done for an Australian car that was a lot better resolved as well and meant minimal power loss.
I nearly bought a Birds conversion one a few years after my Sapphire as they were pretty cheap being 'modded' cars - missed out and got an E46 330 instead - if I'd have had it, it would have got a quicker rack and better manifold though.
Notwithstanding all the above, even the lhd cars, as they came from factory, never convincingly won over the Sapphire 2wd in the handling stakes when both cars were tested new though
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800bhp (08-11-2016)
08-11-2016, 01:22 PM
#162
PassionFord Post Troll
You can only really compare the standard road cars as who knows what every dog and his uncle has done to the suspension/geometry with their 'improvements' 25 years on. The base car was never a 'bad' handling car, the modifications people have made along the way might have turned it that way though
08-11-2016, 05:36 PM
#165
cossie fan (unluckerly)
That's the thing you can't compare them all the same in the dry with a beam proper coilovers properly set up and what ever other suspension and braking mods you can get. R888's and a good driver and that rwd cosworth with power all of a sudden becomes very good in the twists
08-11-2016, 07:15 PM
#167
PassionFord Post Troll
Absolutely! I noticed that when test driving cars - bonus was if you had 4 matching tyres!
Same car on 10 different sets of tyres can feel completely different - just look at any tyre test and see the lap times, driver feedback etc
Remember when Performance Car did a tyre test and used a Coswortn as the test mule? Irrelevant now as none of the tyres are available but makes interesting reading. Same as when Autocar did similar with an E36 328 - on one make it was like a smokey drift car, on another it was nailed to the Tarmac through the same curves.
Same car on 10 different sets of tyres can feel completely different - just look at any tyre test and see the lap times, driver feedback etc
Remember when Performance Car did a tyre test and used a Coswortn as the test mule? Irrelevant now as none of the tyres are available but makes interesting reading. Same as when Autocar did similar with an E36 328 - on one make it was like a smokey drift car, on another it was nailed to the Tarmac through the same curves.
08-11-2016, 08:04 PM
#168
............
That's the thing you can't compare them all the same in the dry with a beam proper coilovers properly set up and what ever other suspension and braking mods you can get. R888's and a good driver and that rwd cosworth with power all of a sudden becomes very good in the twists
The reason we all love older cars like the cossies is nostalgia and that old school hammer of boost.
08-11-2016, 08:05 PM
#169
............
09-11-2016, 12:33 PM
#171
Budget tyres shouldn't exist IMO. A lot of people seem to forget the the rubber wrapped around their wheels is the only thing in contact with the road.
I've even seen some build threads over the years where the owner has upgraded the brakes to some expensive fancy setup and then put distinctly average tyres on
I never skimp on tyres whether it's for the van, the daily car or a project.
Yes, you need to buy the best you can afford but if the best you can afford is a budget tyre, don't buy any tyres at all and don't use the car.
Bottom line as I think we all seem to be saying, is they play a big part in the way a car handles and behaves, drastically affecting your braking performance too.
I've even seen some build threads over the years where the owner has upgraded the brakes to some expensive fancy setup and then put distinctly average tyres on
I never skimp on tyres whether it's for the van, the daily car or a project.
Yes, you need to buy the best you can afford but if the best you can afford is a budget tyre, don't buy any tyres at all and don't use the car.
Bottom line as I think we all seem to be saying, is they play a big part in the way a car handles and behaves, drastically affecting your braking performance too.
09-11-2016, 01:02 PM
#172
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Originally Posted by moondustka
Budget tyres shouldn't exist IMO. A lot of people seem to forget the the rubber wrapped around their wheels is the only thing in contact with the road.
I've even seen some build threads over the years where the owner has upgraded the brakes to some expensive fancy setup and then put distinctly average tyres on
I never skimp on tyres whether it's for the van, the daily car or a project.
Yes, you need to buy the best you can afford but if the best you can afford is a budget tyre, don't buy any tyres at all and don't use the car.
Bottom line as I think we all seem to be saying, is they play a big part in the way a car handles and behaves, drastically affecting your braking performance too.
I've even seen some build threads over the years where the owner has upgraded the brakes to some expensive fancy setup and then put distinctly average tyres on
I never skimp on tyres whether it's for the van, the daily car or a project.
Yes, you need to buy the best you can afford but if the best you can afford is a budget tyre, don't buy any tyres at all and don't use the car.
Bottom line as I think we all seem to be saying, is they play a big part in the way a car handles and behaves, drastically affecting your braking performance too.
09-11-2016, 02:23 PM
#174
It's not nonsense, it's also about safety as well as performance. The age of the car is irrelevant.
I didn't say everyone must buy the best, just that I don't think budget tyres should really be an option. Did it once years ago on a caddy van and it was lethal, put Continental van tyres on and it was a totally different van - I was an apprentice at the time on £50 a day. It's the not the only time I've experienced bad tyres - I've learned and fortunately from not having an accident.
I don't know what tyre costs £150 for your average daily driver. I get Michelin PS3s in 225/40/18 for £95.
All I'm saying is Ford (for example) don't send their cars out with a crap manufacture of tyre, so it would be a good idea to maintain this when changing tyres rather than fitting the cheapest tyre you can get which could cause increased stopping distances and a higher risk for the driver and everyone else.
Anyway a bit off topic - we'll have to agree to disagree.
I didn't say everyone must buy the best, just that I don't think budget tyres should really be an option. Did it once years ago on a caddy van and it was lethal, put Continental van tyres on and it was a totally different van - I was an apprentice at the time on £50 a day. It's the not the only time I've experienced bad tyres - I've learned and fortunately from not having an accident.
I don't know what tyre costs £150 for your average daily driver. I get Michelin PS3s in 225/40/18 for £95.
All I'm saying is Ford (for example) don't send their cars out with a crap manufacture of tyre, so it would be a good idea to maintain this when changing tyres rather than fitting the cheapest tyre you can get which could cause increased stopping distances and a higher risk for the driver and everyone else.
Anyway a bit off topic - we'll have to agree to disagree.
09-11-2016, 03:05 PM
#175
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Originally Posted by moondustka
It's not nonsense, it's also about safety as well as performance. The age of the car is irrelevant.
I didn't say everyone must buy the best, just that I don't think budget tyres should really be an option. Did it once years ago on a caddy van and it was lethal, put Continental van tyres on and it was a totally different van - I was an apprentice at the time on £50 a day. It's the not the only time I've experienced bad tyres - I've learned and fortunately from not having an accident.
I don't know what tyre costs £150 for your average daily driver. I get Michelin PS3s in 225/40/18 for £95.
All I'm saying is Ford (for example) don't send their cars out with a crap manufacture of tyre, so it would be a good idea to maintain this when changing tyres rather than fitting the cheapest tyre you can get which could cause increased stopping distances and a higher risk for the driver and everyone else.
Anyway a bit off topic - we'll have to agree to disagree.
I didn't say everyone must buy the best, just that I don't think budget tyres should really be an option. Did it once years ago on a caddy van and it was lethal, put Continental van tyres on and it was a totally different van - I was an apprentice at the time on £50 a day. It's the not the only time I've experienced bad tyres - I've learned and fortunately from not having an accident.
I don't know what tyre costs £150 for your average daily driver. I get Michelin PS3s in 225/40/18 for £95.
All I'm saying is Ford (for example) don't send their cars out with a crap manufacture of tyre, so it would be a good idea to maintain this when changing tyres rather than fitting the cheapest tyre you can get which could cause increased stopping distances and a higher risk for the driver and everyone else.
Anyway a bit off topic - we'll have to agree to disagree.
09-11-2016, 03:18 PM
#176
PassionFord Post Troll
Just fitted new budgets to my van and can't fault them both wet and dry grip, biggest problem is people wearing tyres out and expecting them to still corner. Obviously on the cossie I buy good branded tyres.
09-11-2016, 05:53 PM
#177
09-11-2016, 06:10 PM
#179
10K+ Poster!!
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I run budget tyres on all my fleet of work vehicles there absolutely fine for everyday driving, 250 hp per wheel is a different but to say budget tyres shouldn't exist is just silly imo
09-11-2016, 07:33 PM
#180
PassionFord Post Troll
Hi chap, yes I do indeed, if you're interested I'll scan it in but it'll take a while and is 15 pages. It it a 4wd Sapphire actually but the mention of it was to illustrate the point, how even with well-known brand tyres, the feedback/lap times/grip and breakaway could change markedly for the same car.
For example, slowest to fastest, difference on dry lap ( 100 second lap ) was 2 seconds, wet lap ( 80 second lap ) was 5 seconds......not to mention the driver comments on the feedback from the whole 'package' of car and tyres.
Interestingly, the Cosworth OE fitment which was included in the test didn't come tops. Obviously manufacturers have to take into account NVH, cost, supply confidence, wear and other factors when choosing a tyre but I found it interesting reading.
I guess Ford didn't do a bad job in the end with their Bridgestone choice as it managed to finish 3rd behind 2 sports-type cars ( Mazda MX5 and Porsche 944 ) that are still talked about now as excellent handling cars in Autocar's Best Handling Car competition. 4 of the 10 judges picked it as their 2nd choice - not too shabby for a 4-door saloon when there were M-cars present that didn't make the top 5.
They were certainly decent enough when new and un-tampered with
I wonder how the judges would rank the cars selected now though......
For example, slowest to fastest, difference on dry lap ( 100 second lap ) was 2 seconds, wet lap ( 80 second lap ) was 5 seconds......not to mention the driver comments on the feedback from the whole 'package' of car and tyres.
Interestingly, the Cosworth OE fitment which was included in the test didn't come tops. Obviously manufacturers have to take into account NVH, cost, supply confidence, wear and other factors when choosing a tyre but I found it interesting reading.
I guess Ford didn't do a bad job in the end with their Bridgestone choice as it managed to finish 3rd behind 2 sports-type cars ( Mazda MX5 and Porsche 944 ) that are still talked about now as excellent handling cars in Autocar's Best Handling Car competition. 4 of the 10 judges picked it as their 2nd choice - not too shabby for a 4-door saloon when there were M-cars present that didn't make the top 5.
They were certainly decent enough when new and un-tampered with
I wonder how the judges would rank the cars selected now though......
Last edited by Mike1; 10-11-2016 at 07:08 AM.
10-11-2016, 12:57 PM
#182
10-11-2016, 01:12 PM
#183
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Originally Posted by Glenn_
I was on 27.50 a week lol. Ive ran most my cars on budget tyres. I bought maxxis tyres for the cossie,they were 200 quid for 4 and they seem to have plenty of grip.
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scoooby slayer (10-11-2016)
10-11-2016, 01:13 PM
#184
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Originally Posted by Glenn_
I was on 27.50 a week lol. Ive ran most my cars on budget tyres. I bought maxxis tyres for the cossie,they were 200 quid for 4 and they seem to have plenty of grip.
10-11-2016, 07:55 PM
#186
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Originally Posted by Glenn_
Late 1995 matey ha ha. Ive been in the motor trade 21 years now ha ha ha.
I'm still looking into getting back into fleet repair one day but just applied for aa and Rac patrol jobs
11-11-2016, 08:39 AM
#188
Happily retired
My apprentice wage was £196 a year or £3 17s 4d week if your old enough to remember old money. Yes I ran a car on that a Ford 100E that cost £220. Petrol was 4s 2d a gallon. Ran tyres until the canvas showed its was what we did back then & no one gave a monkeys.
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scoooby slayer (11-11-2016)
11-11-2016, 03:03 PM
#190
Happily retired
I have 4 cars 2 will drive around on quality tyres the other 2 on Rumanian ' Ditchfinders'. The cheap tyres may limit times around the Ring but are completely fine on the road. If we had a man with a red flag to walk in front it would be completely safe.
11-11-2016, 03:17 PM
#191
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Originally Posted by Glenn_
Rod how times have changed. I used to always run out of petrol cause i was always skint.
13-11-2016, 06:51 PM
#193
PassionFord Post Troll
To save going off at a tangent as it features a 4x4 version rather than the 2wd mentioned in this thread title, I started a new thread Marc
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...ml#post6705628
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...ml#post6705628
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Marc sierra (13-11-2016)
