STeve

iTrader: (11)

Ok its a subject thats been covered but with so many conflicting opinions its confusing, so in a brief nutshell

MR X owns 2 cars one is wrotten one is good, can all of the parts from the wrotten one be fitted onto the good shell and also move accross the wrotten ones ID legally ?, or is it a case that the donor vehicles ID needs to be retained as its already vin tagged as I was informed if 80% of original cars parts were transfered then original ID could be swapped too, just wanted some clarification as its no bother either way just dont want MR X to fall foul of the law or get it called a "ringer" etc

Fullflush

Why does it matter if the ID is swapped over?

STeve

iTrader: (11)

to me personally its no big deal but to him he wants to retain the original ID, I said he could transfer the number plate if both cars were legal and if both are same colour who would ever know, but hes a tart

gingerturbo

iTrader: (2)

There's no difference between fitting the I'd from the rotten car to the good car to cutting up the good car to re build the rotten car, cars have bin rung over and cut and shut for yrs legally as log as its done properly, its always bin a hard subject as people always have different views, unless the rotten cars I.d has bin scrapped or written off I personally can't see an issue

STeve

iTrader: (11)

I know what you mean but the usual response is its a ringer but to people like him who are OCD on most things its life or death

gingerturbo

iTrader: (2)

Yeh but if he's OCD the chances are he's gunna start from a shell and not just swap tags and plates over, yrs ago you could buy brand new shells from ford with no ID and register your I'd onto it, so does that mean ford was condolling ringing, its the jealous type who bring up the whole ringing issue, I'd sooner have a re-shelled car than a Q plate or cat C/D

STeve

iTrader: (11)

I think its more a case that a shell with its own id could have another id swapped onto it, it was totally different when simply buying a brand new blank shell back in the day as there was never any issues

Cos500

I think it's far better having these cars on the road no matter what it takes than seeing them disappear from them, surely a good solid shell with no rust is a safer bet than patching up a rotten one, they were never intended to last forever and it's just metal.
We should be enjoying the cars while we can not worrying how a number is stamped into a piece of metal.

massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

Taking a body shell and cutting off it's ID tags and replacing them with those from another vehicle is pretty much the definition of ringing is it not?

Whether you would get caught or not is a different question but, just because a lot of people have been doing it for a lot of years, doesn't make it legal

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

You can't transfer the I.D. legally to a used shell, if they get wind of it the car will attract a Q plate.

BigChuck

If you move the chassis number from one chassis and put it on a chassis that has been already given a number it's ringing. As far as the law goes it's pretty black and white, if it gets discovered it'll get given a q plate or crushed.

STeve

iTrader: (11)

you guys are stating which my own thoughts are which is good as it shows my grey cells are still working for now anyway


in a ideal world I agree but some have more money than others

Cos500

Bet half the cossies on the road should be crushed or q plated then, I no 5 close to me are all re shells still wearing original tags, that's just in my area

BigChuck

The rules are fair enough imo the Id stays with the shell, it's the other parts you swap over, other wise you end up with the motoring equivalent of triggers broom, if you were basically allowed to swap every part, including shell/ chassis it's simply not the same car.

gcfcos

did it to a rotten xr3 back in late 90s but it wasn't to sell on it was for the guy to keep and both cars had been bought so not stolen etc. only cause the good shell had 11 months mot and a blown engine. Naughty really but never got caught

massivewangers

iTrader: (1)

You're probably right there. Many don't get caught, but the law is pretty clear.

Vacuman

So back in the 70's and 80's when rodding Ford Pops and Y's etc. was the in-thing we would buy a new chassis (e.g. Jago) and then put that under an old Pop shell. Then decide the shell is rotten so buy another Pop and use the better shell (but keep first cars no. plate).

Then add running gear etc.

Shell's back then didn't have stamped VIN numbers and 3rd party chassis were not serial numbered so were we breaking the law?

Is this not about Intent? If the intent, from swapping IDs and VIN plates etc. is to defraud by claiming something is more valuable than in reality (e.g. Cosworth rebodied onto standard car shell) then, as a buyer I would not wish to pay out full wack for a car that is not genuine original. But if sold as Cosworth rebuilt using 1600L shell then no intent to deceive. Yes? I guess that sounds better than a 1600L upgrade to Cosworth spec and hence impact on resale value.

dojj

iTrader: (3)

the "shell" of the car, ie the chassis and passenger compartment or whatever everything bolts onto is what has the ID

this ID is unique to that shell

you can change everything else that's either bolted, riveted or welded to that shell but as long as that originality is retained there is no question of breaking the law

so you can put a new roof on, or a new floorpan, or new chassis legs or a pillars or b pillars or c pillars etc as individual items but changing the whole lot would be breaking the law

unless

you have a new unregistered shell, in which case you can legally reshell the old car to the new shell and then it gets a q plate

however

if the parts that you are fitting to this "new unregistered shell" are "new, bought from the manufacturer and proven to be new with paperwork" then, once you have obtained enough "new" parts you can get an age related plate to go with the car

i would hazard a guess that with so much hard work the car either has exceptional sentimental value or extreme monetary value, either way, doing it wrong and then bumping into the wrong copper will see it crushed, worst still if you were to have an accident and these things came to light

gcfcos

My mate had a saph 2wd that had been reshelled from 3 years old after a serious accident, it had no number in the floor and had a special vin tag on the slam panel. Was on its original f reg plate though

Cos500

That would be a new ford shell, would be blank where number should be, would keep its original id

ajamesc

I wonder how they get on restoring vw's or mg's lol some of them the only original bit must be the number and the rest is new welded in metal lol. If you followed the rule book without a touch of common sense then a lot of restored classic would be crushed

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

I dont know why people still believe so much fucking shite about this.

The information is clearly available from the government website after seconds on google.

So with a brand new shell (and be prepared to prove its new), you keep the reg no. This used to be common place with new high value cars after a crash thats bent the chassis but not much else (eg side impact into pillar/sill).

Of note for all the cossie conversions and crazy conversions:

Another one that applies to rebuilt classics or cars built up from a shell and parts sourced elsewhere:



Thats the law, however what people get away with in practice is very different.

many cossie conversions would easily fall foul of the rules and end up on a q plate if not done carefully. Anything with a cossie floor grafted into another car is blatent q plate territory.

Iain Mac

I built my car from a new shell and got a new registration number, age-related to the age of the donor, and new VIN.

Keeping the donor's reg and chassis numbers were NOT an option.

The first part of the VIN is used to identify the manufacturer and plant, reshells get a DVLO (or something like that) prefix.

Remember, the reg number is not really the car's ID because reg numbers can be swapped around.

The Vin is the bit that decides the identity of the vehicle and, despite stories that Ford dealers and bodyshops used to stamp the original VIN into new service shells after severe body damage made the reshell necessary, I'm not convinced it was ever legal to do so even though we know it was fairly common practice.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

SABTVR is the current DVLA issued VIN number prefix. I found that out after doing a bit of digging into my cossie puma as it had an SABTVR vin as it was built from a new shell.

Iain, I agree that many of the garages have probably done it wrong by stamping in the old vin. Unless theres an exemption for manufacturer rebuilds in recent cars in such cases.

It was commonly done on rally and motorsport cars too and often for many non-works cars you stripped a donor vehicle for the main parts. eg the s1400 and s1600 pumas you used a donor vehicle and got a kit of parts off ford motorsport to build the car including a new shell. I guess in theory if you had a receipted rally car kit from ford or similar, you could register it as a kit car/amateur built vehicle although i doubt many were as i suspect the easiest route possible was taken to get the MSA logbook.

JPA

Sorry mate , that's totally incorrect , I worked at ford in the 90's and I re shelled loads of RS & XR motors
All with new Ford shells , all left with there own reg still attached , the shell is one of the parts that make up the car
Hence it can be replaced , it's that simple really

mk1turboestate

iTrader: (2)

I bought my t5 gearbox from a guy building an mg gt, from a new shell, also brand new suspension engine, basically everything!
He had an old rotter on his drive with no reg or tags as that what was getting (rung) onto the new shell, with free tax no less!
He reckons he has at least 30k in the new build

matts1

Swapping ID is essentially ringing, but many will say they can't see the harm in swapping all the bits of say an RS S2, onto another RS S2 and what difference does it make?

The problem comes in when someone sticks all the RS bis on say a 1.1 pop shell - essentially you are paying RS money for a look-a-like !!!

Or, that a lovely mint RS goes missing and gets a fresh ID off a rotten car.

155lee

iTrader: (10)

Would mr x be happy if he paid top money for a mint genuine original car to then find out it's actually a base model shell that's had its I.d swapped with a much more desirable I.d?.
I wouldn't and if the seller declared it before purchase I wouldn't bother going to see it..
Pretty sure if it was a new shell that is unstamped it could retain the donor cars I.d but anything else is ringing.
Plenty mk1/2 escorts out there not wearing their original I.d though and you would never know.

STeve

iTrader: (11)

this subject came up on another ford forum and one bloke replied he did it to his motorbike and his dad had his jag done at a garage like this swapping ids onto already vinned shell/chassis so it must be legal

It's Czech Mate

It's a piece of piss to tell if you can get at the floor where the tags are

mk1turboestate

iTrader: (2)

Where are the tags on the floor of a mk1/2 escort? I've bare metalled mine and not found any and mines solid! They have vin number on the strut top but that's it, and they are normally replaced

It's Czech Mate

Or wherever they are stamped on the shell

botters

iTrader: (2)

they are only stamped on the strut top and there are people with the correct tooling to stamp the number into a new inner wing or strut top strengthener provided you show them the logbook first

mk1turboestate

iTrader: (2)

And hence you could never tell it was rung! Also if it had no numbers it wouldn't be unexpected as it's 35 years old plus, my point stands, you couldn't tell

botters

iTrader: (2)

i was agreeing with you! cars pre 1st august 1980 dont need a chassis number anyway

It's Czech Mate

You can still tell if it's not original....

The difficulty is proving its rung I guess, but it's easy to tell if there are welds, non original paint or whatever but proving the purpose of the non originality would be difficult.

But if spending a lot of cash on an original car with supposedly original paint and panels it would take a matter of minutes to authenticate.

mk1turboestate

iTrader: (2)

I no mate, I highlighted your post as it's spot on

You won't find many mk 1 or 2 escorts on original paint, most need a repair panel in the inner wing and if so you lose the vin, then a simple tag swap and no one would no