louis_2012

Won this on the bay for cheap, was told the turbo was seized but its not, the turbo is working fine, it has the usual BKD turbo whine (140 bhp engine) but otherwise fine.

I asked on VW and Audi forums and had little response so thought id try here as its helped before.

So basically when the car is cold, and you start it, it has no issues starting, when you first turn the key itl seem a bit slow but then itl start instantly, its like theres a brief pause but it fires up easily, and itl tick over fine with no problems.

Then you go to drive it, and thats where trouble starts and things just get worse as it warms up. Itl drive fine, through the gears, up to 2000 revs/RPM. If you hold it and try cruise anywhere between 2000 - 2500 rpm then it judders, misfires, kangaroo/lurches. It then struggles to get past 2500 - 3000 rpm, its not in limp mode but you have to plant your foot to the floor and really give it death, its gutless as fuck and once youve got it past 3000 revs theres plumes of light almost white grey smoke coming out the back, and this is defo smoke, not steam.

Once its warmed up and then u stop, or let it idle, then it wont idle properly, its like hunting like a petrol car does when the idle control valve is knackered and sounds really rough.

So, scanned it, had 2 fault codes both relating to boost but i pressed the wrong button and wiped them, and ive driven it 20 miles and those codes havent come back, in fact there are now no codes showing at all?!

Did a bit of research, was told it could be injectors, injector loom, injector seals, anti shudder valve, EGR valve, boost leak.

Now ive had many PDs with boost leaks and none of these cause these issues in my experience, they usually cause black smoke as the car chucks more fuel in to compensate for the loss of pressure and a loud hiss, this Golf does the opposite. Also had one with a duff anti shudder valve, all that did was rattle its tits off when you switched it off, no other problems.

Removed the cam cover and unplugged each injector one by one, each one made the problem worse, and when i scanned it there was 4 codes for each injector id unplugged, so it cant be those. I then checked the colour of the diesel in the filter, clean as a whistle and the filter is recent, so the injector seals arent leaking or the fuel would be black.

There is vacuum at the EGR, but readiness test came back as a fail on the EGR, but again ive never had EGRs causing these issues?

So in summary, it idles fine cold, then when its driven it starts playing up around 2000-2500 revs, jumping etc, wont go past 3000 without effort and a load of grey/white smoke. then when idling once warm its hunting and sounds like a bag of spanners

Tomorrow il check the EGR valve. Aside from that im going to borrow a full version of vagcom and live log what the injectors and timing are doing.

Its a beautiful 2 owner car, on 103,000 miles, with 10 stamps in the service book and a wad of paperwork over the years, so by no means a uncared for high mileage banger..

Grey smoke is underfuelling to me, so either theres something up in the fuelling system, or somethings choking the engine.

Any other things it could be? Ive heard of the Pourous head on the early BKDs ( A code) , but this doesnt smoke at startup and doesnt use water?

Anything else please say, im running out of ideas, thought itd be a easy fix but im stumped :/

JamesH

iTrader: (21)

White smoke can be unburnt fuel

mat_rss2

My 170 a3 smoked, lurched and shuddered when the boost pressure sensor had had gone, idled fine but showed all the symptoms yours has when on a roll but didn't show as a eml on the dash, showed as a pending code

Rick

EGR valve that is stuck open will cause these issues. Blank it and test.

Rick

TommysKeeper

iTrader: (2)

Sounds just like the EGR valve failure on my daughters Golf TDI. Good Luck with getting sorted - Took 3 visits to VW main dealer before fix!

tony66

iTrader: (7)

start with basics
check cam timing is fine-physically-and belt is tensioned correctly
nice fresh fuel filter-good clean fuel -plenty flow from tank[no water present]
security integrity of all connectors/plumbing
leak off test injectors-fuel rail pressure etc
tis only nuts bolts and a few chips

xr2wishy

iTrader: (2)

Temp sensor working fine?
Otherwise egr valve buggered imo.

louis_2012

EGR is getting it today, temp sensors fine. Ive done everything than be checked by hand and eye, aside from the EGR valve.

The boost pressure sensor sounds like something that came up when i first scanned it but wiped it before i had chance to read the code, but like i say ive driven it since and it never came back so could have been an old code that never came back. Ive got a decent scanner, it even tells me the heated seat element in the drivers seat is defective, but nothing on the engine side is wrong apparently, which means it cant be electrical, and the EGRs on these are vacuum operated not electrical, it only throws a code when it cant sense gas being passed through it, the shudder valve is the only electric part down there, its only the BMN 170 brake engine that has an electric EGR

Bailes1992

The fuel pump on these have an oil feed.
Sometimes the seals in the pump fail and fill the diesel with oil which causes similar symptoms.
Will the fuel filter out and see if it's covered in black sludge.

louis_2012

Update time.

I had the fuel filter out and the filter is newish and the housing is fine and free of any contaminants and water evidence.

So i went to remove the egr but one of the bolts is a bastard to get to, so pulled the vac hose off bunged it with a bolt then put a plate in the other side where the exhaust gases are fed in to block it off. I then went to remove the small S sort of shaped rubber hose that connects to the bottom of the ASV (anti shudder valve) which is connected to the EGR underneath, when i removed the hose from the top the whole hose come out in my hand?! it wasnt even secure in the lower plastic pipe which runs to the passenger side join on the intercooler, and same again down there it wasnt held in either... so i did away with the clips, out came the drill fired holes through all the hoses and put self tappers in, re assembled it all and took it for a run. It was ten times better, revved a lot more freely, right round the range, it now pulls hard all the way round the rev range but theres still a loud hiss coming from somewhere when u nail it, ive checked all the other pipes and cant find any other loose ones?

The only problem that remains is when you cruise at 2000 or so revs it starts lurching and misfiring, if you nail it from the start all the way round it doesnt seem to do this, its like it doesnt like gentle progressive acceleration? the idle is still shit, its not as bad as it was but its sort of idling fine one minute, then u rev it and it starts going all lumpy and misfiring again shaking its tits off, then itl calm down, the itl flare up again..

I plugged the vac hose back on the EGR and took the blanking plate out and didnt make any difference, it seemd a little hesistant but still pulled hard, that was down to all the boost hoses being loose/off.

Just wish i could sort the dodgy idle problem and the lurching when cruising at 2000 or so revs.

Full vagcom should be here soon, tho i dont have a clue how to use it. I guess i need to check timing and what the injectors are doing, and also boost.

Fullflush

I think you have more than one problem.

EGR for sure, I'd be checking every boost pipe and my spidery senses say the variable veins part of the turbo is not moving so smoothly. Its needs a new turbo anyway so chuck one on.

Its not anti shudder (or inlet manifold flap) as it would chuck a light on and the only symptom would be when you turn it off, it will shudder.

louis_2012

The turbo is fine? It pulls like a train now ive screwed all the boost pipes in solid?

It pulls hard through the gears now, it just doesnt like being held at lower revs, and like i say the dodgy idle.

Fullflush

From what you describe it could be struggling to switch from low revs mode to high revs mode

louis_2012

what the hell would cause that lol

Fudgey

iTrader: (4)

Dont the turbos on these have vvt? They have an actuator that moves a set of vanes to alter the effective size of the turbine housing for response. So at low revs the effective turbine housing is smaller to aid spool, then as the revs/boost pressure increase they open to unrestrict exhaust flow essentially making the turbine housing bigger.

They do fail, guy at works brothers 2.0 had the turbo fail in this way. Not sure of the symptoms but new turbo fixed it.

Fullflush

The veins get clogged up. Yours sounds like it is sticking open.

This is not related to the turbo noise yours has. Be very careful, mine blew up and it hydraliced the engine with oil. Bent rods galore

louis_2012

lol used to Mr muscle the turbos in the PD engines in the MK4 Golfs to release the veins, used to work a treat on the AJM/ASZ/ARL engines, take the EGR pipe off and dump loads of mr muscle down there till it comes back out, let it soak, dump a bit more in, manually work the actuator till it feels freed up, start the fucker up and nail it down the road to blow all the shit out. Just normally itl throw fault codes related to boost if its bunged up which it is odd it hasnt. Full vagcom should be here today if my mate can be asked. lol cheers

louis_2012

Just thought id update this.

Got it on the laptop a full VCDS/vagcom

Went into the engine module, measuring blocks and found the timing (torsion) value at -2.5 , when ideally it should be 0.0 or +0.5

Adjusted the timing to 0.0 , and it starts loads better, it doesnt seem to have much of a noticeable hesistation when cruising, and the shake at idle is not as violent, but its still not right.

The idle stabilization (block 13 on VCDS) Injector Quantity Deviation when cold is as follows when idling

Cylinder 1 - -1.06 mg/str
Cylinder 2 - 0.54 mg/str
Cylinder 3 - 0.14 mg/str
Cylinder 4 - 0.35 mg/str

When engine is upto temperature when idling

Cylinder 1 - - 1.39 mg/str
Cylinder 2 - 0.99 mg/str
Cylinder 3 - 0.66 mg/str
Cylinder 4 - - 0.28 mg/str

I then nailed the arse off it around the estate came back and im face with these values, again when idling

Cylinder 1 - - 3.01 mg/str
Cylinder 2 - 1.65 mg/str
Cylinder 3 - 1.44 mg/str
Cylinder 4 - - 0.09 mg/str

Can anyone make any sense of this? one minute it looks like injectors 1 and 4 could be an issue and 2 and 3 are working fine, then maybe defo 1 is fucked, but then nailing the arse of it just makes number one even worse.. so is number 1 duff, or 1 and 4 ?

Audi/VW forums have been useless

Greasenuts

My tupence - wiring loom to injectors. Ive done loads of these and sometimes bench tested them and they've checked out fine yet fit a new one and problem solved. They're cheap and a piece of piss to fit. Gotta be worth looking at.

Cheers
Mark

markk

iTrader: (2)

You have a lot of injecotr compensation going on there, simply put, crankshaft speed is not equal for each firing stroke, there are always varations on speed for a crank driven engine, the burn process does not produce a linear effect to rotate the crankshaft at the same speed, hence the oscilation in crankshaft revolution.

This engine (as with a lot of others these days) can adjust each cylinder to suit the differences in these speeds.

Without reading all this again, two things, is the cam timing 100% bang on? Has this engine ever been mis-fuelled?

PD injectors do not like petrol at all. Once they have been missfuelled they are usually done with.

Remove the injectors and beging to have a look at how they have seated initially, if the seats look ok then send the injectors away to Feather Diesels in Yorkshire for testing.

louis_2012

I was going to do the loom, but its around Ł80 and a dirty job, money and a fuck about for a fix i wont know if it cures it or not. I really dont want to play the buy one part fit it, not worked, buy another, fit it, not worked game. The timing was out, the timing is now spot on, and its made it a little better, but its still not right, I dont know the history of the car so dont know if its had petrol put in it. I just cant get my head around the massive differences in the injector readings I posted.. whether its cold and sat still, theres one set of readings, whether its warm and sat still, theres another set of readings, then i blast the arse off it, get another set, and then when its ticking over 5 minutes after being blasted again another set of readings.. driving me nuts. The injector s arent exactly easy to remove either apparently? Apparently you need some sort of tool to compress them? Any ideas?

markk

iTrader: (2)

No tools to compress them, just a slide hammer to remove them, if you have not done them before or are not confident setting them up then its best left to someone who has.


Maybe this is the problem in the first place.


Just another question, does the battery warning light work?

Greasenuts

ah thought they were cheaper than that

louis_2012

Ł115 on the bay for a loom

Ive not done them before no, but im pretty clued up to be fair, i went unbolting cam pulleys and turning things earlier, only took 3 attempts to get the perfect adjustment

Battery light im not sure mate, though the battery is pretty shit on it as its been sat since October, but it starts ok, only had to jump it the once

markk

iTrader: (2)

That does worry me to be honest, when talking timing it should be a job first time done right. Did you use the special tools?


Battery is crucial to starting correctly on these, anything less than 280rpm on cranking and the start procedure will not be initialised.

louis_2012

You can adjust the timing on the front cam on the BKD's, undo the 3 13mm bolts and then 18mm bolt on the centre ratchet on it , forward advances it, reverse retards it, ive seen it done on about 10 - 15 topics on various forums and to be fair, its made the car a whole load better.

Im going to whip the battery out tomoro and get it tested, and also the loom and see if a friend can bench test it.