cossie inlet cam phase trigger
06-10-2014, 03:19 AM
#2
https://passionford.com/forum/ford-escort-rs-cosworth/215286-dizzyless-cam-sensor-mounted-in-cam-cover.html?styleid=2
Are you on standard management or aftermarket? I had troubles getting it working on std management, and I believe Tony at turbosystem confirmed this. In the end I modified the trigger heavily and it works now. If your on aftermarket you should ve fine though
Are you on standard management or aftermarket? I had troubles getting it working on std management, and I believe Tony at turbosystem confirmed this. In the end I modified the trigger heavily and it works now. If your on aftermarket you should ve fine though
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06-10-2014, 08:38 PM
#8
PassionFord Post Whore!!
22-10-2014, 03:55 PM
#12
.As for accuracy, the camshaft is of course driven by the exact same belt that drives the distributor so both sensors are driven at precisely the same speed and with the same accuracy.
22-10-2014, 04:24 PM
#14
In real world use, i find cam trigger installations are far more prone to problems as they are created by "Fred in the shed" instead of Ford / Cosworth and we see no end of problems with the timing and gapping of them and of course all the associated problems with the extended wiring spliced together and sometimes even then being wrapped round HT Leads for "Tidyness" .
is that not the case with everything that as you say if fred in the shed has done it ,it was used on wrc cars and most modern cars plus most motorcycles use cam sensors ,and as for the gapping of them you have to do that with a dissy plus bearings wear in the dissy that most people wont change so you have a gap that alters then as the shaft slopps about were there wont be many cams that do lol
As for accuracy, the camshaft is of course driven by the exact same belt that drives the distributor so both sensors are driven at precisely the same speed and with the same accuracy.
.is that not the case with everything that as you say if fred in the shed has done it ,it was used on wrc cars and most modern cars plus most motorcycles use cam sensors ,and as for the gapping of them you have to do that with a dissy plus bearings wear in the dissy that most people wont change so you have a gap that alters then as the shaft slopps about were there wont be many cams that do lol
As for accuracy, the camshaft is of course driven by the exact same belt that drives the distributor so both sensors are driven at precisely the same speed and with the same accuracy.
22-10-2014, 04:48 PM
#15
The weber ecu works within a 45 degree window
The phase sensor was relocated from the dissy in the early 90's to try and reduce the adverse affects of RF interference with the sensor housed in the dissy with a rotor arm and a dissy cap and a lightening storm going on
22-10-2014, 06:13 PM
#16
The cam trigger is fixed to the cam, so once the cam timing is tweaked what happens to the cam trigger?
I can spend a good hour on the dyno playing with cam timing to find peak power, the last thing I want to be doing is adjusting the phase at the same time because that doesn't need to be moved. Seems far less accurate in that case to me.
If the cam trigger is made adjustable it makes tweaking the cam timing a bit more involved when you then have to remove the cam cover and re time the cam trigger, you totally rely on fred in the shed to put it in the right place
Id put money on the fact that the timing is wrong far more often with a cam trigger rather than a phase sensor.
I dread seeing them, as i know full well most of the time at high rpm on the dyne IAW will flag up cam trigger sync error
Last edited by James @ M Developments.; 22-10-2014 at 06:43 PM.
22-10-2014, 06:54 PM
#17
The phase sensor signal does not need to be accurate it is purely a signal for the ecu to be able to interpret what phase of the 4 stroke cycle the engine is on
The weber ecu works within a 45 degree window
The phase sensor was relocated from the dissy in the early 90's to try and reduce the adverse affects of RF interference with the sensor housed in the dissy with a rotor arm and a dissy cap and a lightening storm going on
The weber ecu works within a 45 degree window
The phase sensor was relocated from the dissy in the early 90's to try and reduce the adverse affects of RF interference with the sensor housed in the dissy with a rotor arm and a dissy cap and a lightening storm going on
What about the fact the dizzy is adjustable so the phase can be accurately aligned and checked,
The cam trigger is fixed to the cam, so once the cam timing is tweaked what happens to the cam trigger?
I can spend a good hour on the dyno playing with cam timing to find peak power, the last thing I want to be doing is adjusting the phase at the same time because that doesn't need to be moved. Seems far less accurate in that case to me.
If the cam trigger is made adjustable it makes tweaking the cam timing a bit more involved when you then have to remove the cam cover and re time the cam trigger, you totally rely on fred in the shed to put it in the right place
Id put money on the fact that the timing is wrong far more often with a cam trigger rather than a phase sensor.
I dread seeing them, as i know full well most of the time at high rpm on the dyne IAW will flag up cam trigger sync error
The cam trigger is fixed to the cam, so once the cam timing is tweaked what happens to the cam trigger?
I can spend a good hour on the dyno playing with cam timing to find peak power, the last thing I want to be doing is adjusting the phase at the same time because that doesn't need to be moved. Seems far less accurate in that case to me.
If the cam trigger is made adjustable it makes tweaking the cam timing a bit more involved when you then have to remove the cam cover and re time the cam trigger, you totally rely on fred in the shed to put it in the right place
Id put money on the fact that the timing is wrong far more often with a cam trigger rather than a phase sensor.
I dread seeing them, as i know full well most of the time at high rpm on the dyne IAW will flag up cam trigger sync error
22-10-2014, 07:01 PM
#19
What about the fact the dizzy is adjustable so the phase can be accurately aligned and checked,
The cam trigger is fixed to the cam, so once the cam timing is tweaked what happens to the cam trigger?
I can spend a good hour on the dyno playing with cam timing to find peak power, the last thing I want to be doing is adjusting the phase at the same time because that doesn't need to be moved. Seems far less accurate in that case to me.
If the cam trigger is made adjustable it makes tweaking the cam timing a bit more involved when you then have to remove the cam cover and re time the cam trigger, you totally rely on fred in the shed to put it in the right place
Id put money on the fact that the timing is wrong far more often with a cam trigger rather than a phase sensor.
I dread seeing them, as i know full well most of the time at high rpm on the dyne IAW will flag up cam trigger sync error
The cam trigger is fixed to the cam, so once the cam timing is tweaked what happens to the cam trigger?
I can spend a good hour on the dyno playing with cam timing to find peak power, the last thing I want to be doing is adjusting the phase at the same time because that doesn't need to be moved. Seems far less accurate in that case to me.
If the cam trigger is made adjustable it makes tweaking the cam timing a bit more involved when you then have to remove the cam cover and re time the cam trigger, you totally rely on fred in the shed to put it in the right place
Id put money on the fact that the timing is wrong far more often with a cam trigger rather than a phase sensor.
I dread seeing them, as i know full well most of the time at high rpm on the dyne IAW will flag up cam trigger sync error
22-10-2014, 10:37 PM
#23
Another point is how the signal looks like if viewed on an oscilloscope. The reason for the original trigger to "lean" into turn of direction is that the ecu needs to have a very abrupt signal.
I found on the cam setup that no matter the gap, it only worked after I had removed at least half of the material from the cam trigger (both trigger points off course). This should give a clean, short and steep signal curve much like the original from the dizzy. Whereas the cam triggers otherwise gives a signal that is build up more slowly because of the greater mass. And apparently difficult for the weber marelli to handle
.
I seem to recall that Jonathan from Bigturbo.com confirmed that the theory was not totally nonsense
I found on the cam setup that no matter the gap, it only worked after I had removed at least half of the material from the cam trigger (both trigger points off course). This should give a clean, short and steep signal curve much like the original from the dizzy. Whereas the cam triggers otherwise gives a signal that is build up more slowly because of the greater mass. And apparently difficult for the weber marelli to handle
.
I seem to recall that Jonathan from Bigturbo.com confirmed that the theory was not totally nonsense
23-10-2014, 09:52 AM
#24
The phase sensor needs to delivery 2 pulses about 5 degrees wide spaced 180 crank degrees apart with the first pulse occurring 45 degrees after TDC on cylinder 1. These pulses are not used as ignition timing references as many people wrongly assume (presumably because its inside a distributor) but are actually used to tell the ecu which crank pulse is TDC and which is 90' BTDC and on which cylinder.
I recall the softwares critical angle for error was about 5 degrees and not "45" degrees so I wonder if that rumour started (ive heard that quoted before) because the signal is 45 degrees after TDC? Or maybe weber once quoted +/- 4-5 degrees error allowance? Either way, our software shows all error correction properly and hasnt had it removed like many other firmwares (Pectel for example) so we can see any errors flagged immediately and you definately cant get away with 45 degrees of missalignment without fuelling problems arising.
Indeed, the signal is not "as" critical as the crank signal as thats used for more fucnctions like injection and spark pulses, but its still critical that its set correctly as far as im concerned and indeed the tool we use to set it clamps on in place of the rotor arm and gives us a 1mm pointer over on the outer distributor body to align accurately with the correct mark inside the distributor. The same way the Weber Tool does.
23-10-2014, 09:54 AM
#25
I found on the cam setup that no matter the gap, it only worked after I had removed at least half of the material from the cam trigger (both trigger points off course). This should give a clean, short and steep signal curve much like the original from the dizzy. Whereas the cam triggers otherwise gives a signal that is build up more slowly because of the greater mass. And apparently difficult for the weber marelli to handle
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