Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Evening everyone,
I am making a new topic to put a final rest to this recent bandwagon that many have decided to ride upon… The topic is “Trader or not trader” and is discussed in various places, most of which I have locked for now. Originals here:

https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=108754
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=108838
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=108865
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=108861

First of all let’s look at the way I personally wrote the PassionFord rules that can be found in the sticky on this forum:

Now to me that is pretty clear, but what I agree is not very clear at present is how we determine that someone is either a gold member or a secret trader, especially with regards to car parts as opposed to cars as a whole. To me it’s reasonably simple in as much as our Gold membership scheme allows regular non motor trade members to access the various gold member only rooms and also sell various items they have for sale on a private sale basis.

The gold membership scheme is essentially in place to keep PassionFord funded and a way for private individuals to buy and sell items related to their hobby but is not a ticket for people to buy and sell goods with the sole intention of using PassionFord to better themselves financially. Remember this general rule:
Buying an item with the sole intention of selling it again at a higher price is classed as "Trading" as you are exchanging cash for parts for no other reason than to increase your wealth. If you are trading you are a "trader" and thus are required to use a trade PF membership.

Traders membership fees are there for people who are genuine fully paid up traders, Due to many people abusing this system last year and far too many folk being ripped off by individuals with no business sense or morals, this type of membership can now only be purchased by someone who can pay me with a business cheque that states his business name upon it. If you are unknown to me as a business (Not many in this business are) I may ask you to provide further details such as company registration number etc.

This way we have done all we can to protect the PassionFord consumers from rogue traders and when asked for advice I can comment honestly as well as give them the traders address if its required, this cannot be done with a member who rips someone off and paid for gold membership via paypal. Remember, newcomers to the Ford Scene will not have a clue who is who trader wise so is an easy target to be instantly stung. That’s why these rules are tighter than you may expect. My aim is that anyone comes on PF to sell parts and earn themselves a few grand in the process must be prepared to offer some form of professional service and be answerable to trading standards etc etc… private individuals are not and thus I don’t want them supplying my members on a professional basis as when it goes wrong it looks bad and leaves a poor taste.

I have personally had umpteen complaints from persons who were “unfairly treated” last year by people trading on PassionFord and as the supplying media we are to an extent liable for everything posted within the forum, talk about “disclaimers” and “freedom of speech” all you like, but until you have sat with a solicitor and discussed it, please don’t waste my time over it, I do know how the law works as this forum has forced me to understand the complications of it. I have letters here from an Australian solicitor making various threats to me too, but hey, as Admin its my job to deal with it for the good of everyone, why should you care about the big picture when you only have yourself to think about?

What I aim to be able to do is ensure that all people selling items on PF as a “trader” are accountable to at least “Someone” and that we don’t have folks on here selling parts in a wholesale manner, ripping folks off and then running with the cash and escaping under the “Private sale” bollox. That’s why I insist traders give me some form of proof they are who they say they are.

I agree the rules could do with some clarification from time to time and this is done as and when issues arise. Look how often the rules have been edited recently, its an ongoing thing as we all learn to live together in harmony on what will likely become a very large forum, and given decent and constructive input I am more than happy to do so with rules that will suit the majority, but when I read a 7 page topic calling us all Hitlers and money grabbers etc I am not exactly inclined to spend any more of my spare time making this place a better forum for YOU, in fact, it makes me want to wash my hands of it altogether at times, especially when the aggrieved party can quite easily see that his PM to me has not even been read as ive been bombed out and not been on PF much at all to even look at his problem......

Finally:
The situation with “AndyEscos”;
It seems a perfectly simple misunderstanding to me, as if he has bought the vehicle to obtain parts for his own use and is selling the surplus off, that’s not a problem to anyone, but I believe various people understood his topic as a “Bought to break for profit” and with hindsight, id probably have treated it the same way.. here it is:

“The mighty cossie parts bonanza”
Now I don’t expect many people would come to any other conclusion if they read the above advert would they? Yet these same people have enjoyed jumping on the bandwagon and telling exciting premonitions of PassionFords imminent demise due to this small issue.. lol It really amazes me at times how upset folk get over minor issues like this, especially when you can make 7 pages of bollox that are worthless without my input anyway, so why not wait for the other half of the story since it will obviously be available at some point? Get a life and stop worrying about the internet so much eh chaps?

CraigN

Stu i know and you know that old membership is not a ticket but everyone doesnt see it that way.

when money became envolved so did politics !

everybody wants everything for nothing !

TheBishMan

Is Andy's post going to be reinstated then? Seems like the misunderstanding could have been very easily avoided

adamS2RST

Same day different ****

MrsFrog

Stu,

Not sure whether this is open to discussion or not or if you just put the post up to clarify where you stand..... but as you haven't locked THIS thread I will assume it is for discussion....

I just have one question: How does one determine/check if something is sold at a profit?

Thanks.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I dont see the relevance of teh question or where its coming from Natalie to be honest? Elaborate a little please.

But AFROFLMFAO & PMSL @ your siggy

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I love the way in almost an hour and a half theres only a couple of topic relevant replies (I deleted the other joke ones) yet that other topic did 7 fooking pages of garbage

DazC

iTrader: (1)

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

No problem Daz, its just i logged on this morning to a full PM box and 4 or 5 topics of arguing over this life changing issue so would like a serious discussion relevant to a post that took me a long time to write during business hours.

However... everyone is suddenly all quiet so seems ive wasted yet more of my time

cossiecrew

well im here just i got nothing more to say thought i was right but have been proven wrong hence i edited the post saying so ?

RSKim

TBH Stu, I personlly dont see how another discussion is going to help the situ, there seems to be loads of discussions gone on regarding this matter (and others) and knowbody ever agrees, half dont even reply, maybe it should be a point of, if people aren't happy for whatever reason, they should put up why, and what they think should or could be done about it, yet this would prob end up in another argument.

Sorry about the post before

Dirty Harry

iTrader: (12)

its only gone quiet as the answers is all in Andys origional post,shame it has gone this far with so many pages and time wasted

Deano

Stu are you saying that if some has some parts to sell they cant because their sole intention would be to make a profit thus making them a Trader

BillyCabrio

iTrader: (1)

Those 7 pages were constucted toward last night and it still only 5pm in the afternoon.

Wait for people to get home, i'm sure this will grow..................

Less.

Nice to have it clarified but I have said all I need tosay on other posts

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Kim,
Thats half teh problem, all those topics and arguing and no body bothered to ask ME or wait for me to clarify what they were arguing over

This is the part that relates to your question:


Any help or shall i clarify further?

Lee Reynolds

Stu, the only way i see an end to the fude over this subject is something on these lines....

Place a clause into Passionford that states 'no responsibility will be accepted by Passionford for any parts or cars sold by using passionford to advertise'. Then if you get any complaining PMS just delete them....saving you hassle.

Then, let Gold members advertise what they like, but only allow a certain amount of for sale advertisments to be placed...4 cars and then maybe 20 parts per year???..otherwise they have to pay per advert...just as you have to pay Autotrader or ebay.
Allow traders to sell as normal. They still get the banner benifits, and they get more space over non trader becuase of the 4 cars..20 parts limit.

Or something on those lines???? Just a thought m8

RSKim

I think most of what they have been arguing over has been answered - hope so anyways went on for long enough, if it wasn't I think you clarified it in your em essay lol, sorry in your post

Still think peeps should take this opportunity to bring up any issues they have though - get them all "ironed out", seems like a never ending argument recently usually due to "misunderstandings".

frog

Deano, I think the point is that if you buy to sell, then technically you are a trader, but, if at the time you bought something, you had the intention of using it first, then decide to sell, your conscience is clear, you can put the item up for sale.

However, this is where the problem lies IMO (as asked by MrsFrog), how can the line be drawn by the mods, they only have someone's word (and wording in a post) to go by.

I don't want to re-start the whole thing again really, but some people on here pay for gold membership to be able to put things up for sale and there will always be this grey area which has made a few uncomfortable recently.

Stu, I understand you want to make the traders official, and that's a mighty fine idea, how about a registration scheme without the financial costs associated for the traders instead ? Maybe a platinum membership for them, this would only be granted if they produce the information you currently require from them.

Someone buying would know they are buying from a "reputable" source so the principle is still there.

This would imo remove the financial aspect of trading on PF, thereby reducing the politics that go on, etc... whilst maintaining the safety net you are trying to provide.

Now, if someone wants to make their presence more obvious on the site, they can buy premium options like banners, etc...

This, I believe would allow bedroom traders to trade, whilst allowing proper businesses to co-exist in a peaceful fashion.

I could be wrong with this, but in the early days of PF, there weren't that many gold members, and the trader's fees got the site off the ground (well done chaps), but now that we have close to 600 gold members, are the more expensive traders' fees still required ?

*flame suit on*

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Lee it is a possibility, but its also one that would require extensive coding to put into operation. The forum simply doesnt have user selectable limits like that pre coded. Apart from that, im not seeing any great issue here personally that would require such drastic measures...

Kim,
Agreed, i want it ironed out, thats why the topics here.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Evening Greg,
The line is hard to draw and is often down to a members honesty, but in reality a problem very rarely raises its head, but when it does, you all remember it as its interesting..lol Lets face it, the place generally runs quite smoothly and shifts 120 THOUSAND posts per month, and ive only seen a couple of gripes myself in the 120,000 this last month, so things arent all that bad for everyone to get upset im sure

You other idea is not bad at all but the problem is, if this so called platinum member robs you and natalie of say, a head at £1K, do you know what you can do about it down at trading standards? Nothing, as its a private sale, small claims court and aggro. However, if i show them that the individual paid me to trade on PassionFord with a legitimate COMPANY CHEQUE, they will take it seriously and you have new options open to you.

Does that example help you to understand my point on this?

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

sTu - so what if you bought a car took all the bits off it and then decided to sell the parts cheaply or give them away as this is not the SOLE INTENTION of selling it again at a higher price is classed as "Trading" as you are exchanging cash for parts for no other reason than to increase your wealth.

The rules still need clarifying in my view. Im looking at buying a cheap saffy to take bits off it with a mate and was going to put the remains up on here but it seems to much hassle i will be classed as a trader

To be honest, i think some traders are not happy about being undercut and seem to want to monopolise the breaking of cosworths to just a few traders.

Common sense will tell most people they can get a car and break it themselves nowadays and make more money.

Times have changed from when the only people breaking cars were the traders.

I agree from the traders point of view to a certain extent, but why should it stop the rest of the peeps from selling parts.

Too many rules will push users away from this BB as this seems to be the beginning of the end.

As for bedroom traders - see my reply in one of the threads re Ryan

Its all a farce - just two pence worth

CraigN

if "andy" (name used for arguments sake) did indeed put a full car up for breaking and bought it for that purpose then he is a trader and not paid up to be so pissing on petes lawn.

If he owned the car and thought its worth more in bits OR bought it as a donor vehicle kept what he wanted and flogged the remains i see that as ok.

there is confusion between posts tho.

Andy clearly in his original post had the whole lot for sale thus pissing pete off
yet he then claims that it was infact for a donor car.

allready sold engine etc or what ??????

2 + 2 = 3 at the mo i think.

You need VERY strict SIMPLE rules

if there has to be a hundred different criteria ppl will try and blag etc methinks

Phil

iTrader: (1)

Surely if there are 600 gold members, at £20 a go that is £12,000 a year. Is that not enougfh to keep the site running alone and scrap the whole trader scheme?

frog

Evening Stu
True, very true...

Stu, I meant for platinum members to show you the exact same level of certification, maybe charge £40 instead of £20 as a token gesture to differentiate.

Point is, that we are all adults, if I buy something off PF, and it doesn't turn out to be as expected, I either learn my mistake, or, sort it out with the individual... I wouldn't EVER consider running to you for arbitration
When I buy a car off the AutoTrader from a private chap, the paper has no responsibility towards me as an individual surely

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

It possibly would be yes, shame we wouldnt have a prayer on earth of ever getting that many or i may get some cash out of all this aggro

Gra

Hi Stu

I totally didnt relise this

frog

And no, because of what stu said above.

Stu, I counted the gold memberships this morning, there are 12 pages of 50, so that's 600 odd considering the 12th page isn't full.

I presume you're saying they are not all paid up as spadge hinted before.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

That list is the list of all whom have contributed since the scheme began, not those who have current gold membership. In the early days that was subject to UK vat and administration costs and is now subject to French vat and administration costs. Before anyone makes any daft comments, and those costs up... scary how much the government enjoy PF's existence

It would suit me just fine if PF started making a good profit although im sure there are many folks who will think thats totally out of order too!

Lee Reynolds

Yeah i did think that maybe something like that could be a problem.

Well, what about sticking with the clause, and just let gold members advertise at their leisure. After all, it shouldnt/isnt your or pets problem wether someone is a trader or not...its the inland revenues.
If Traders are not happy with gold members doing this, and they decide NOT to have a ''Approved trader status' and leave PF then IMO it would be their loss, as with the amount of ford owner/members of this BB they would be cutting their noses off to spite their faces...as advertising on here is aimed directly at the custom they seek...and for not a lot of money as far as advertising goes.

So Gold members get a free for all to sell.
Traders get the banner and a ''Passionford Approved Trader'' status so people know they can trust them, thus getting more and more custom.
How do Traders get a ''Passionford Approved Trader'' Status?? Introduce a voting system. So many positives acheives the status. MAybe gold, silver and bronze status???

Just throwing a few ideas about. Unsure if they would work tho??

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

The platinum member youve just described would have to be a trader for the level of security to still exist, as i explained above. The only people i want to trade, are genuine legitimate traders. Unless im missing your point, which is entirely likely


Roflol.. i wonder how many peeps would admit just how much i get PM,d E-mailed, and called at work over PF issues every single week of the year...

Just because the majority of members see it for what it is, an internet web forum on a hard disk somewhere in southern francfe, unfortunately there are hundreds of others who hastle me over the slightest of problems...

L33 BYT

I think alot of the rows/arguments is becuase people just do not read rules. Its like a new video player. Who sits down for an hour and reads all through the manuals. NOPE, plug it in and start tapping buttons on the remote.

Same here people just dont read the rules. which then means do not understand whats going on.
I think in all the system in its form should work well. As you said it is the minority of people making comments.

It suprises me so much when perhaps once a month an error comes up. A message pops up - Whats up with passionford.

Nothing to do with maybe the 10/20/30/40 routers our request goes through. Nothing to do with the ISP.

AT THE END OF THE DAY ITS THE INTERNET. Get a life, get a partner and if maybe not possible go visit the little boys room and have a game of pump up the ham.

Maybe Stu, I know their are lots already but a stronger gang of mods in the selling areas. And what about a banner on these forums which shows some pin point rules/points to bear in mind.

Lloyd

i think you might like this idea stu if you are a gold member and sell parts on this site,10% of the sale price should go to passion ford.it might be that private traders just up the price to cover the 10%.but they would still be cheaper than some traders parts.

righthooker

Glad that its resolved ,in my opinion corectly
Its just a shame it took so long,and without going back to the seven page essay i cant remember when the post was deleted.Maybe it was to late for Guss to discuss the ins and outs with Stu or other mods.
It seemed obviose to 99% of users that Andy is not a trader and had bought the car for parts.Its a shame that the "trader" couldnt see it that way .
What i found more anoying was the manor in which the situation was handled by the mod(we all know its difficult and this aint a digg at all mods )To simply belive the word of the trader and disregard that of the gold member without giving it a little thought .Short and sweat was the PM,but an explanation or "i will discuss it in the mods room and get back to you " may have been more appropriate,and halted 7 pages of one sided discussion.
I think a trader such as Pete ,should not have to worry about a guy breaking a car,to the point of getting his thread deleated,seemed petty.


May be nextime a little more thought on all sides can avert such a situation in the future,.
carry on the good work

righthooker

Try policeing that one then

L33 BYT

What about an smaller ebay style thing. Feedback and a fee going to you guys.

Dirty Harry

iTrader: (12)

read the post again mate the car was bought for profit not for a few parts he needed,look at the origonal advert that Stu has posted at the start of this thread no mention to keeping the engine and box its all there for sale in black and white.I dont want to go over old ground but please read before commenting

Mr RS500

iTrader: (6)

Lee

You miss our ( traders point ) we are saying it is already our loss
To be honest as far as trading goes i could take or leave passionford as i sell fook all on here anymore ,,Personaly i arnt bothered anymore and thats a big shame but its true , so if you want a free for all then ok , i will become a cold member and do as you all do ( exactly what i am doing now ) Think about it ,,,,,,

Dirty Harry

iTrader: (12)

well said Paul its coming to a point when you can take or leave something,Iam in the same boat as you as we seem to be fighting a loosing battle on here as every sale is a battle foe a few quid or has to br disgust and days taken to decide then thers the ceartain people who just plain hate the traders,The thing is eveything anyone wants can be got off this board

righthooker

Just have pete ,the add is missleading ,This is what i meant,by the above quote,a couple of polite questions from the mod or yourself to andy may have clarified the situation.
easy with hindsight,