focusv8

[quote=ROG.;5780779

My guess would be something like air brakes for the trailer is required but that is a guess[/quote]

Correct, power assisted brakes, which will still work after the engine has stopped/ failed;

Reg 76 item 1 a AND b

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...lation/76/made

,

mcst

My intention here isn't to argue the toss and pick apart your information but you replied to the comment below with this statement.

Which is correct subject to 750kgs not exceeding the unbraked towing limit of the tow car. As an example my Jimny has an unbraked limit of 350kg i have a small 50kg trailer that is plated to carry 300kg so perfect for the car.

So far the clearest information i've ever found from a reliable source. All the DFT links i have are all archived.

The test isn't massively expensive and i will be doing mine once i am in a position to trailer my jimny to pay an play days. I stand by my opinion that people should do the test to remove doubt and know they are within the limits as theres no real way of being certain unless you get to a weighbridge. You could easily be over by 1-200kg once you've got the trailer loaded and put some kit in the tow car with a driver and passenger.

I weighed some scrap in recently so noticed the weight on the way out and once i deduct my empty trailer from the weight the car was 180kg heavier than the factory weights without my slight 13.5st frame in there. Its got taller and wider wheels and tyres, had a full tank of fuel and i've got a fair bit of kit in too. Just as an idea of how easy it is for stuff to add up.

ROG.

Are you saying that I am not reliable ?

mcst

Yep totally unreliable
A better way of putting it, "from the appropriate government offices" ?

robrs2

Not sure if I have missed it in this post.
But I have found that VOSA seem to change the law, guilty before being innocent.
I have a touran I use to tow my Sierra track car. Book figure is 1140kg for a road Sierra. So 400kg for my trailer get me within my tow capacity in the hand book from vw.
But if the trailer is plated for say 2000kg gross weight. It will be towing illegal. As the trailer has the potential to exceed the cars tow limit. Even if the trailer is empty.
How good is that.
Anyway I have been looking to get a new trailer and after talking to a very nice guy from Brian James trailers. I am getting a new trailer with it plated for the Tourans MAM at 1800kg, all legal. As standard there trailer is 2000kg for the one I'm getting.
Don't you just love VOSA.

James

Right i'm with you.

however basicly i can tow my trailer no issues with my mondeo estate on 175/65/14 tyres, no abs and worn out suspension.

But as soon as i hitch it up to my RR with self leveling suspension, abs/esp & a gizmo which straightens up a swaying trailer, a better chassis & 255/55/18 tyres this is now illegal to drive on my license.

which combination is most likely to cause a accident?

I know it's not personally your fault it just prooves what a ridiculas law this is.

along with the one that the nearly blind, nearly deaf 70 year old with a heart condition can perfectly happily couple up his 3500kg load on the back of his RR having never towed a trailer before ( !!!! ) but it's illegeal for a perfectly fit bloke in his twenties to do the same! Who poses the greater risk?

I will most definately be booking my B+E soon just to avoid this kind of shit tbh! In my view it's Ł200 max well spent. I'm pretty confident i'll be ok as have alot of experience towing trailers well over a pesky 3500kg!

incidently where does the law stand of tractor drivers towing trailers iirc you can legally drive tractors with trailers on the road from the age of 16 ?

Yet me in my twenties is obviously the greater risk with a gtw overweight of what 500kg that my licence says is ok? Yet my trailer & vehicle manufacturer says it's fine!

Who brought in the shite? Labor i suppose? Time for an ePetition............

focusv8

It's also on the link I posted above.

You can tow a trailer with gross weight of around 20 tons using a tractor with a weight of 5 tons, which will of course have around 500bhp

.

mcst

Most decent trailer places will do exactly that and plate the trailer accordingly. Its all about playing the game.


Who else? Its all bullshit and no doubt another money spinner. While its not making them billions just think how much it nets them when everyone thats passed after 97 and wants to tow heavy trailers, drive a truck etc. has to take a test. Then theres the licence renewal every 10years on top of that.

cfoster

Some interesting facts on here but still blimmin confused!! I need to take a trailer test soon as I passed my test 3 months after it stopped appearing automatically on licences, which one would i need to take?

I will be using a BMW X5, a curbweight of 2170kgs and a towing capacity of 2700kgs, i'll be needing to tow a horsebox with perhaps 2 horses on, each horse weighing 600kgs. What could the maximum weight of the trailer to stay legal (MAM?)?!

Cheers!

DS81

Interesting reading but lots of facts and figures which makes it some what confusing unless you study it all, I passed the B+E test two years ago and tbh its a piece of piss but as said its just a typical government money spinner

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Rog.

I have already posted a similar thread, but more about specifically the post 97 license than general towing, but it sounds like I may have got one small detail in my post incorrect.

The thing I feel I may have made a mistake on is that I (as have a couple of others in this thread) interpreted the 3500 MAM weight limit for a post 97 license to include the MAM of the trailer, plus the MAM of the car, where as you appear to be saying its the actual weight of the trailer plus the MAM of the car.

Ie I was under the impression:

Car MAM : 2200KG
Trailer MAM : 1300kg
Trailer Actual : 1300kg

Was legal



but that:

Car MAM : 2200KG
Trailer MAM : 1800kg
Trailer Actual : 1300kg

Wasnt legal.



Are you able to point me at a specific bit of legislation which shows this to be the case, if so I will update my thread on the subject here as I would hate for there to be any detail in my thread that wasnt 100% accurate and I was very much posting in good faith that I had ensured I was correct:
https://passionford.com/forum/genera...ml#post5393450

mcst

Look up trailer training local to you there's usually a few and shop around as it shouldn't be too much but can be up to Ł400.

mcst

I'm the same on that, i knew how to work out the weights etc but wasn't aware of the catch here that if the trailer MAM is plated to exceed what you can legally tow you're screwed still

ROG.

Are you certain of that or would you like to give me all the relevant info?


Do you know the DSA test reverse, the DSA un/couple procedures and the way that the DSA want you to drive on the road ???
The DSA B+E test fee is Ł115

Icurus

It does not help you to try and deduce whats what with your van, when the manufacturer displays the info like this!

Why do they not just state GVW, GTW etc etc?



Of course you can try and make out whats what, but that does leave room for error, which in the case of towing can cause serious injury, death even, plus should you survive any accident caused by you being over the weight limits, the police throwing the book at you!

ROG.

You need the B+E test - you already have the provisional on your paper part of the licence for that so you can have supervising driver sitting next to you now as long as they have had the B+E for at least 3 years, are over age 21 and the vehicle has L plates as well as insurance for a B+E learner

There is no way with your current B licence that you will be able to tow that set up BUT WILL BE OK as a B+E provisional learner

That set up for 2 horses would require a trailer MAM of at least 2200 but can be up to 3500 on a B+E licence

I say at least 2200 on the assumption that the trailer weighs 1000 empty plus 1200 for horses

Your BMW has a towing capacity of 2700 so with a B+E licence I would opt for a trailer with a MAM of 3500 and an unladen weight of 1000 so that I could load 1700 into it

Many IFOR horse trailers are around 3500 MAM with an unladen weight of just under 1000

ROG.

If I said different to your good self then please include a link to the post where I said it because if I did then I was WRONG !!

I think you might have read a post by me where I said the ACTUAL weight was to do with the towing capacity

cfoster

Brilliant thank you! Its a minefield all this! I'm about to buy an X5 purely for trailering really so wanted to make sure it was capable of the job. Wanted one of those Dodge 4x4 things as they seem really cheap but their towing capability is awful!

Cheers
Chris

focusv8

I'll see your 220 and raise you a 280




It does, it's just not in Everyday language, or any other langusge undertstood by the everyday driver

.

ROG.

Those weights are usually listed in the same order
GVW
GTW
Axle 1
Axle 2

robrs2

1300kg tow capacity on those numbers then

James

No offence, but i am fully aware of what is required. As i said previously i am about to book the test any day and am pretty confident i'll pass.

I've been towing trailers for the last six years most weekends, i've got a horse box and 16foot ifor williams twin axle with 3500kg MAM. Using mondeos, discoverys or range rovers as tow cars over the years.

I dont mean to come accross as arrogant but just because i dont have a bit of paper which says i can do it dont mean i can't.

Obviously i havent ever towed a trailer over the recommended weights or liecence restrictions on the road though. obviously.

Chris, if i were you (unless you really want an X5) is buy a old transit or simlair been converted to a horse truck. In my opinion a horse truck is soo much less stressful than a trailer/car combo & less likely topple over should the horses have a paddy in the back.

Icurus

When I first saw that info on my Connect, I looked in the owners manual, yep, sod all in there to help you solve the puzzle!

What's the big secret Mr.Ford? Ahh I see, its the industry standard way to display that kind of info. Does not really help me the first time I come across the need to find that information!

All said and done, the Connect can tow jack shit

focusv8

And neither can a SWB Transit,

If fact your connect can tow more than my full size Transit

James

ROG, can you just clarify something please if this is legel on my licence:

B liecence
2006 ford kuga 2.5t 4wd
GVW-2130
GTW-4230

therefore i can tow 1370kg. take away the 770kg my unplated trailer weighs (ive had it on a weighbridge, should i carry a certificate of the unladen trailer weight?) leaves me with 600kg of load/horse assuming i have tyres of load rating 71 (345 kg)

Is that right?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Cool, was pretty sure I had it right anyway but reading a couple of your posts on this thread sounded like it was otherwise.
No drama then, glad the info I had already given was correct, I do pride myself on trying to be accurate, thanks for clarifying.

cfoster

I've already suggested that to my missus but the X5 is going to be our everyday smoker as well so want something half comfortable. Realistically we'd only be towing perhaps once or twice a month in the summer months so not all the time. Merc ML was the other idea but for around the 7k/8k mark I can't get one that isnt 10 years old!

ROG.

VEHICLE
Kerb Weight = 1608 Kg
Gross Weight = 2130 Kg
Towing Limit = 2100 Kg
GTW = 4230 kg

TRAILER - assumimg 4 tyres
Unladen = 770 kg
MAM 4x345=1380 kg

LOAD
Horse = 600 kg

ILLEGAL on a B licence by 10 kg

Reasons it is illegal
Vehicle GVW 2130 plus trailer MAM 1380 when added together is 3510
That is 10 kg over the 3500 limit

Also - Gonna be very close on making certain that each of the 4 tyres are not overloaded !!

ROG.

So what LAW did you get prosecuted under?

I can categorically state that you did not get prosecuted for this because there is no law anywhere that states the MAM of a trailer must not exceed the towing capacity of the vehicle

Chip

iTrader: (3)

If he plated the trailer for MAM of 1370 though, he'd be legal then wouldnt he?

ROG.

YES .... BUT.... I have no idea how someone goes about plating a home made trailer and so far have not come across anyone who does !!

James

Sorry my bad calculations, doh! Yeah i see how that worked out.

Would vosa/police really be bothered about 10kg over weight limit ?

So lets try again:

B liecence
2006 ford kuga 2.5t 4wd
GVW-2130
GTW-4230
Towing capacting (gtw minus gvw) 2100

therefore i can tow 1370kg. (3500 minus gvw) take away the 770kg my unplated trailer weighs (ive had it on a weighbridge, should i carry a certificate of the unladen trailer weight?) leaves me with 570kg of load/horse assuming i have tyres of load rating 70 (335 kg) trailer MAM (1340)

Is that right?

Re over loading tyres, you mean having the load distributed evenly? (impossible in a horsebox really but lets assume i have 570kg of potatoes on board!)

James

On a side note, take a lwb transit minibus with 19 seats with gvw of 4250. Can i drive this on just a B liecense with no passengers on board?

Obviously with fair paying passengers i would need a psv licence of some form ?

& also is dgw same as dvw ?

ROG.

10 kgs over - unlikely to bother unless on a really bad day!!!
Especially on a trailer going by tyre load ratings

everything else looks fine for B licence towing

your math is ok

Unless a towing capacity is listed then the total weight of the combination goes on the GTW of 4230 which means that with a B+E licence and a trailer with a high MAM the weight between the vehicle and trailer can be spread as the driver sees fit as long as none of the plated weights are exceeded

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Make your own plate and fit it I reckon!

ROG.

Never heard of dgw or dvw -what does that stand for?

Driving passenger carrying vehicles (PCV) on a car driving licence
Exempted passenger carrying vehicles



Holders of a full category B (car) driving licence may drive any of the vehicles listed below:

• a passenger carrying vehicle manufactured more than 30 years before the date when it is driven and not used for hire or reward or for the carriage of more than 8 passengers
• a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats provided the following conditions are met:

i. the vehicle is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body but not for hire or reward
ii. the driver is aged 21
iii. the driver has held a car (category B) licence for at least 2 years
iv. the driver is providing the service on a voluntary basis
v. the minibus maximum weight is not more than 3.5 tonnes or 4.25 tonnes including any specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers
vi. if the driver is aged 70 or over, is able to meet the health standards for driving a D1 vehicle
When driving a minibus under these conditions you may not receive any payment or consideration for doing so other than out of pocket expenses or tow any size trailer; you may only drive minibuses in this country. Drivers aged 70 or over will need to make a special application, which involves meeting higher medical standards.


Holders of a full category D (PCV) driving licence can also drive a passenger carrying recovery vehicle. This is defined as a vehicle (not being an articulated goods vehicle combination) which:

• has an unladen weight not exceeding 10.2 tonnes
• is being operated by the holder of a public service vehicle (PSV) operator's licence and, is being used for the purpose of:

i. proceeding to, or returning from, a place where assistance is to be, or has been, given to a damaged or disabled passenger-carrying vehicle
ii. giving assistance to or moving a disabled passenger-carrying vehicle or moving a damaged vehicle

James

Sorry, i meant gvw not dvw. I'll start again.

Is DGW (design gross weight) the same as GVW (gross vehicle weight) ?

As some of the classes used for MOT purposes are based on DGW and i've often wondered if it was the same as GVW and no-one i have mentioned it to seems to be able to give a definative answer.

& heres the scenario with the mini bus. 17 seat minibus (16 passenger seats) with a gvw of 4250 (i think) (it's over 3500 anyway) If i am delivering said vehicle or test driving it following repair with no passengers on board am i legal to drive it with a B licence?

As again this seems to be another vast grey area that no-one i know can give a definative answer to. Some say yes it's fine as no passengers. Others say it's over 3500kg so no,others say it's fine if on trade plates? Or do i need pcv/d1. Or even C1 as GVW between 3500-7500kg, is a minbus without passengers classed as a big van?

And also if i did the towing course (B+E) then gained D1/pcv would i automaticly get D1+E or is that an additional test ?

ROG.

3500 and under yes but then again the two axle design weights will add up to more than the design GVW !!

over 3500 use VOSA plates which are alwys less than design weights

As soon as a vehicle goes over 9 total seats it becomes a PCV and weights do not become an issue

You need a D1 to drive that unless it comes into the special exemptions where it can be driven on a B licence

Taking it for repair etc is not one of those exemptions



B+E will not upgrade D1 to D1+E
D1+E will upgrade B to B+E but only for as long as the medical remains current

1.9 xr2 on 40's

just a quickie, can a tranny lwb lowloader carry a 2000kg 4400/lb car?
it has a crane etc so is fair heavy but just on the face of it like

ROG.

Unlikely to accomodate that weight because the GVW is going to be 3500 unless uprated for a C1 licence - over 3.5 tonnes

I am fairly certain that unladen with a crane is going to be more than 1500 - most cars are around that weight unladen