James Bulger murderer back inside

[Benni]

http://www.footballforums.net/forums...ad.php?t=24497 Benni. - I doubt it like but, lol!

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[turbotoaster]

ive just sat and read this thread from start to finish and i have a few comments for everyone who posted on this thread.

1) Chip

To be honest mate, you took a step back and looked at this from completely out of the emotional box, pretty much like you do on everything, which is one of the reasons i like you, you dont rise to the occasion when people get on your back and you give rational thoughts to the situation in hand.

I also dont believe that children are infact born evil, every child has a mental jigsaw puzzle as such, some pieces larger than others depending on the child.

As a child is brought up he is conditioned to control some parts and expand others, that is the fundamentals of what nurture is.

The issue with these children is that a combination of events have nurtured the already enlarged(from birth) 'bad' moral compass to the point where they have become 'evil bastards' as the dailymail posters are shouting about.

Remember a child doesnt know wrong until he is taught that it is, yes what the kids did was at the extreme end of the bridge but surely some discipline in there life would have diverted the course slightly.



We now live in a society that is peaceful(or tries to be) so killing another human for anything other than self defence is frowned upon, i havent included war because we are taught thats self defence, hence ok.

But even that people have had to do some awful things in war to achieve there goals, people have had to be tortured in some horrific ways to get information which has gone on to save alot of lives.......do you also view there actions the same way, or because its there job they are mentally stable and free of conscience?

Another way to look at it was the mention of africa and the young boys who are taken and trained from a very young age to kill and torture, those children could lead normal happy lives but are brought into that environment, you saying all those children were evil because ill bet they have done things that make the bulger kid look like nothing.


Basically i dont believe they are born evil, i think everyone has the tendances of commiting terrible things, its just whether our upbringing allows us to easily go down that route.

Ill give you an example, a few years ago i was sat in the bus station next to a bloke, dont know who he was, anything about it, there was nothing wrong with him or anything that would make me feel animosity towards him, he didnt even notice i was next to him and from nowhere i just felt like kicking his head in, im mean really going to town on him to the point of murder.

I dont know where this feeling come from or infact why, but after a moment i thought, wow that was strange and thats really wrong to think that, if i hadnt thought how wrong it was and the consequences of what would happen who knows what i would have done, maybe i would have jumped him?

Remember we have only been civilized for maybe 8000yrs, thats not along time in our history on this earth, we would happily kill other humans that we came across without even batting an eyelid, so to assume we have the ability to rewrite our genetic code is a bit naive.


2) People who keep saying 'do you have kids?'

This is a very common question on alot of subjects whenever anything involves children or the upbringing of children, almost like a barrier of you dont have them so your opinion doesnt count, some child physiologists dont have children, does that mean all there points are invalid.

What a few people have said about the childs mother was that

a) the child should not have been left for any space of time at 2yrs old in a busy shopping centre, the child either needs to be, on rains, in a pushchair, somehow attached to the parent, i would not allow that to happen to my child, so i dont see how you can say that because you have children that it makes it fine.

Not for one second im i saying that its the mums fault that james got murdered, but i think the aspect of this is that the mum should have been more careful in the environment she was in, of course she didnt expect this to happen, but when you head out into the world with a little 2yr old, he/she should always be connected to you.....in your own home then thats different, i can still remember being in rains when i was little no matter where i went outside.

3)Responsibility

Onto the subject of the killers parents, it has been mentioned that one of the children has been involved with the police before, in which case the parents will have been aware of that situation and have again let there children out knowing that they are potential trouble, this is evidence to me that the parents havent been teaching the child from an early age the rights and wrongs, be that as it may, as i mentioned earlier above that it wasnt just that which caused this issue, pretty much what chip said with the engine sums up this whole situation.

People could say the social services are slightly responsible, in theory yes there is a very small amount of blame there for letting these kids get to that extreme level but unfortunately you cannot police what you do not know about, so unless there actions were brought forward to them with instructions that there is something wrong with these boys its very hard to lay the blame there, the only thing you can blame is that the current system doesnt work in that they are able to check all kids for signs of illness.

4) These kids are born evil

Well i wont go into the nature/nurture thing as ive previously covered it, but ill mention this.

People everyday are born with mental illnesses, these can manifest in many different things, one mentioned on here is schizophrenia, someone telling you to do things, whether good or bad, doesnt mean your evil, just that your ill and your following what the voices are telling you to do.

I dont think the kids were born with a bad mental illness, but i believe they werent perfect upstairs(jigsaw earlier) and because of all the other things it was regenerated to much worse than it possibly could have been.

[Benni]

I wonder what would happen if one of those killers were to marry under new identity? Would the fiance to be have to be told? She should be told. Imagine being pregnant to a man that you hated deep down, and never knew you was married to him.

Imagine talking to him about the incident, and I wonder how he'd react? Could he keep it a secret from her, and I wonder if she'd work it out over time.

A lot of questions that interest me.

Benni.

[turbotoaster]

finally because i didnt include this in the first post.

Just to expand on the 'evil' part as such.

Do you all think pedophiles are evil?

Put your dailyfail down and do what rational people do and step back and really think about it.

If one day you saw a child, say 8yrs old and suddenly you started having a sexual urges towards them, you cant control those thoughts, just the same way when you look at a hot bird you feel an attraction.

You dont know why you feel this way, infact because of your social upbringing you know you shouldnt feel this way but you cant help it.....are you evil?

Obviously acting on your emotions is another part of this because your doing something you know is wrong but cant help yourself, you arnt evil but something is wrong upstairs to make you feel this way to the point where you cant control it.

Kind of like stealing sweets from a shop when your 10, you know your doing wrong but do it anyway, you arnt evil, but you havent had enough social nuture to overcome greed

Take that one step further and look at gays, 70yrs ago it was believed to be very wrong and infact an illness to think that way, surely if you think the same way about children thats also an illness, just a worst one.

From that you could read im saying that being gay is an illness, well that would be a way of putting it, but infact im saying that the persons brain is not set the traditional way...ie main purpose in life is to procreate and continue the human race, which just like being a pedophile, your brain is set the wrong way.


This is all just drivel as i type whats coming into my head but basically shouting kids are evil at the top of your lungs doesnt solve the problem or infact offer any solutions to stop the same thing happening again.

If theres a problem with children, fix it, dont just punish after the event and hope for the best, which i think was primarily what chip was originally trying to say.




To expand again, do you think rapists are evil.

Or are they just unable to control there urges, yes what happens to the woman is horrible, but go back 10000yrs and that was the norm, see a woman, grab her and she was yours whether she wanted to be or not, thats how alot of reproduction happened, takes alot of effort to change something ingrained into our being

[warrenpenalver]

although the difference between pedos and nicking sweets is theres no illusion that acting on your urges as a pedo will cause significant and likely life changing serious harm to the child you abuse.

You could argue they did it once then horrified at what they do, report themselves to police, maybe, but a lot of these pedos do it again and again using complex manipulation, lying and gaining trust to gain access to children to abuse. That behaviour is WAAAYYYYY beyond being unable to control urges as it is planned and calculated and in that sense would be described as "evil".

[Chip]

Turbotoaster, the african kids of war are a good example of what children can be routinely nurtured to do, another war based example (although adults this time) is Nanking and the way that japanese acted there towards the chinese, likewise russian troops and their treatment of the germans as they invaded, and likewise the way that british and american whites routinely abused and tortured black slaves, were every single one of those people born evil or were they nurtured to behave that way?
The answer of course is they all acted that way as they didnt relate to the other side as human equals, they treated them as if their feelings didnt matter, they werent all born "evil" they were simply taught to be totally uncaring of the other sides feelings, or more to the point they were never taught to care about the other side as people, as being uncaring towards non pack members is implicitly part of all animals in a world where survival of the fittest used to be the order of the day and selflessness is a relatively modern introduction, and its a concept that I believe those boys werent exposed to enough, we're all born with elements of "evil" in us, and no one brought those boys up to learn to surpress such aspects.

[jamesp43]

Sick boys that should be killed in the same way they did that poor child .. R.i.p james !!!

[Chip]

Originally Posted by warrenpenalver

although the difference between pedos and nicking sweets is theres no illusion that acting on your urges as a pedo will cause significant and likely life changing serious harm to the child you abuse.

Only because in our society we have been taught that is the case, if you look to other civilisations, such behaviour wasnt condemned to anything like the same extent, the island of Pitcairn for example as recently as 10 years ago being an example of such behaviour still being considered relatively "normal"

Have you read "lord of the flies" by william golding?

[Chip]

Originally Posted by jamesp43

Sick boys that should be killed in the same way they did that poor child .. R.i.p james !!!

While I dont disagree with the principal that such people should be executed as I believe they will never offer anything positive to society, what purpose does it serve to do so in an inhumane way?
What would the person torturing them as they killed them gain from doing so?

[cossiejay]

fuck all the politics,call me ignorant,thick whatever you want
they both should have been shot age 10 or not even a 10 year old knows right from wrong .if it had been one of my kids they killed they would not have got to court one way or another i would have got them both. the fucker is now 27 and back in prison charged with child porn offences

[Chip]

Originally Posted by cossiejay

fuck all the politics,call me ignorant,thick whatever you want
they both should have been shot age 10 or not even a 10 year old knows right from wrong .if it had been one of my kids they killed they would not have got to court one way or another i would have got them both. the fucker is now 27 and back in prison charged with child porn offences

Perfectly reasonable attitude to have IMHO, by the age of 10 those boys were already beyond salvation potentially, as the harm done to them will never be undone and shooting them seems a sensible option as I dont believe that prison will ever sort them out.
I think its just too ingrained into me that adults are supposed to protect kids not kill them though that I personally couldnt pull the trigger if I was given the job of doing so in this case, but I think all that "civilisation" would dissappear from me quite quickly if it was my family they had done this to like you are saying yourself.
I suspect that after killing them though, later on when my anger had subsided and I started to think about what had happened, I may find it difficult to live with what I had done, but you never really know how you will feel in such a situation until it actually happens.

[cozzfather]

Originally Posted by Chip

Turbotoaster, the african kids of war are a good example of what children can be routinely nurtured to do, another war based example (although adults this time) is Nanking and the way that japanese acted there towards the chinese, likewise russian troops and their treatment of the germans as they invaded, and likewise the way that british and american whites routinely abused and tortured black slaves, were every single one of those people born evil or were they nurtured to behave that way?
The answer of course is they all acted that way as they didnt relate to the other side as human equals, they treated them as if their feelings didnt matter, they werent all born "evil" they were simply taught to be totally uncaring of the other sides feelings, or more to the point they were never taught to care about the other side as people, as being uncaring towards non pack members is implicitly part of all animals in a world where survival of the fittest used to be the order of the day and selflessness is a relatively modern introduction, and its a concept that I believe those boys werent exposed to enough, we're all born with elements of "evil" in us, and no one brought those boys up to learn to surpress such aspects.

its getting off the subject of child killer venables but regards kids doing stuff my army mate went to iraq and had women and kids shooting at him.
he has pics of the women and children he killed with his gun as a reminder. theres pics of them from when they were alive and ones he took to show people back home what they did,and we all wonder how he become violent and alcoholic.

[Chip]

Originally Posted by cozzfather

its getting off the subject of child killer venables but regards kids doing stuff my army mate went to iraq and had women and kids shooting at him.
he has pics of the women and children he killed with his gun as a reminder. theres pics of them from when they were alive and ones he took to show people back home what they did,and we all wonder how he become violent and alcoholic.

Well some of the people in this thread wouldnt wonder why at all, they would just say its cause he was born evil

[Pob]

The sad thing is, the bulger case is just one of a growing trend of these cases. It was only a few months ago, two boys were tortured almost to the point of death.

[Chip]

Originally Posted by Pob

The sad thing is, the bulger case is just one of a growing trend of these cases. It was only a few months ago, two boys were tortured almost to the point of death.

Yes the parellels were shocking, and it does look likely its going to be on the increase as society seemingly continues to morally devolve.

[* T *]

Originally Posted by Benni

I wonder what would happen if one of those killers were to marry under new identity? Would the fiance to be have to be told? She should be told. Imagine being pregnant to a man that you hated deep down, and never knew you was married to him.

Imagine talking to him about the incident, and I wonder how he'd react? Could he keep it a secret from her, and I wonder if she'd work it out over time.

A lot of questions that interest me.

Benni.

It was said the other one is now gay and his partner is fully aware of his background
But i suppose no matter what happens now with them 2 they are always going to be kept safe.

If they got different names and everything else now what stops them getting a job with kids? Would something come up when they apply for the police records.

[Benni]

I'm sure something would flag up for sure... Although nothing would surprise me. I think the other one is Sean Walsh, as on page one.

Benni.

[CRAIG HAYTER]

should be tortured to death slowly

[COCHYN]

Christ, what a long thread I can't be bothered reading

But all in all, apart from the obvious story surrounding this retard's offences, the justice system has once again proven to be a waste of time....yet again, justified by putting the scumbag back in prison.

Gonna breach your bail conditions and this is what you get, we're having a field day in work because of it.

But despite being back in prison with another identity, he'll still be segregated AGAIN and will live a nice peaceful sentence in a seperate cell....love the ethics of this country

[warrenpenalver]

Originally Posted by Chip

Only because in our society we have been taught that is the case, if you look to other civilisations, such behaviour wasnt condemned to anything like the same extent, the island of Pitcairn for example as recently as 10 years ago being an example of such behaviour still being considered relatively "normal"

Have you read "lord of the flies" by william golding?

Yes i have read that book!!

With pedos im more referring to our society where it is well known that active paedophilia is a crime and well known (to an extent) that it causes harm. So in that context, in our society, a paedophile cannot reasonably expect to not know that his actions are a) illegal and b) harmful to others just in the same way as a rapist etc.

It is quite sickening how there are "pro-pedo" organisations trying to say its ok and doesnt cause harm. so every psychologist and police opinion in the western world is wrong then Although such organisations have little if any evidence to back thier claims.

Originally Posted by Chip

Turbotoaster, the african kids of war are a good example of what children can be routinely nurtured to do

exactly!! Its happened in loads of african countrys over the last 50 years!!! In a similar way in iraq and afghan how vulnerable teens are radicalised to become suicide bombers. (you dont see the experienced mullahs blowing themselves up do you its only the easily replaced expendable angry teens)

Originally Posted by Chip

The answer of course is they all acted that way as they didnt relate to the other side as human equals, they treated them as if their feelings didnt matter,

Originally Posted by cozzfather

its getting off the subject of child killer venables but regards kids doing stuff my army mate went to iraq and had women and kids shooting at him.
he has pics of the women and children he killed with his gun as a reminder. theres pics of them from when they were alive and ones he took to show people back home what they did,and we all wonder how he become violent and alcoholic.

Grouping both these together, its only very recently that basic military training has tried to move away from the concept of demonising the enemy to subhuman levels so your not killing "humans" but "targets". These days they try to call them "terrorists" instead and spread the concept that its ok to kill terrorists as they are subhuman, animal etc etc.

The problem comes when the soldier realises the enemy/terrorists/targets your killing are just other human beings and in some cases (from thier perspective) just protecting themselves from an "enemy". Hence why Iraq/afghan have higher incidences of PTSD compared to previous conflicts. Vietnam was the initial precursor to this yet due to the conflict failure (from US perspective) very little was learnt or changed as people wanted to forget that war.

I think in this "modern" world with easy access to media, easier methods of seeing the perspective of the other side, then the way they train people for conflict is going to have to change as otherwise the rates of PTSD (and similar) will continue to skyrocket. Admitting that the current style of training, and the kind of wars we fight means you will garunteed get a certain of proportion of people fucked up by it, is pretty obvious really!! Cant see the MoD liking that one though as it would be expensive with all the compo claims! not to mention having to tear up a lot of training books and starting again!!

Originally Posted by Chip

Perfectly reasonable attitude to have IMHO, by the age of 10 those boys were already beyond salvation potentially, as the harm done to them will never be undone and shooting them seems a sensible option as I dont believe that prison will ever sort them out.

True.

It is a major dilema of the society we have created though, what to do with those who cant be changed. Execution is the best solution in terms of financial expense, lessening chance of future crime etc.

We have gone too far with individual rights to shift thinking that way though. And a lot needs to be reversed in that way to save society as a whole.

We have to weigh up the balance of the lives saved by executing murderers/rapists/paedos (and select others) versus the risk of executing an innocent person by mistake. Personally i think with reasonable safeguards the risks are clearly outwieghed by the benefits to society as a whole.

Originally Posted by Chip

Yes the parellels were shocking, and it does look likely its going to be on the increase as society seemingly continues to morally devolve.

Western society has peaked and is in decline, so its no wonder we have such problems and wether we like it or not, the laws have to change to suit. Otherwise we will continue to decline despite our so called modern justice system which just wont be able to cope/adapt to the sheer numbers of criminals and scum. Its pretty obvious that if the legal system doesnt provide a suitable sense of justice and a suitable punishment and deterrant then quite simply more crime will happen. its not rocket science to see that. Our society allows people to get away with such things. Same with the wider social problems in our society, benefit class, ASBO behaviour etc. They only do it because they can get away with it!!! You didnt see many teens getting pregnant in the 1800's to get a life on benefits, because there was no welfare state and they got sent to the workhouses or convents instead same with ASB by kids, theyd get a fucking slap off a copper for the behaviour they get away with now, and if they moaned to dad, theyd get another slap and sent to bed with no dinner and at schools disruptive, truant and naughty pupils got the cane, not sent on trips to bribe them into behaving and turning up!!

Thats where a big part of society has got lost, individual rights yet not taking individual responsibility for those rights.

Originally Posted by **T**

If they got different names and everything else now what stops them getting a job with kids? Would something come up when they apply for the police records.

Nothing would ordinarily show up on your usual checks because the integrity of the identity has to be preserved,

But everyone living under a new identity has a case worker assigned for such a reason to ensure that suitable jobs are done, people are not too much in public eye etc etc.

The only difference is that the level of active case management by a case worker is different depending on the risk. You would like to think that criminals released under new identity would have a higher level of supervision commensurate with the inherrant risk of reoffending. Obviously the balance was got wrong here.

[Lambchop]

Originally Posted by **T**

It was said the other one is now gay and his partner is fully aware of his background

So he wasn't before?

Every time there is a gay argument the actual gay people say they were always gay

[Chip]

Originally Posted by Lambchop

So he wasn't before?

Every time there is a gay argument the actual gay people say they were always gay

There are only a handful of openly gay people on this forum, its not a big enough sample size to draw meaningful conclusions from.
Some people feel they are born gay, others beleive its a lifestyle choice, im sure there are genuine examples of both.

In the case of scum like the bulger killers I suspect they are so fucked up mentally they arent particuarly gay or straight, you have to be able to relate to someone else as a person first after all to be really one or the other, and im sure they cant do that properly.

[cossiejsy]

Jamie parents are on This morning now

[* T *]

Originally Posted by Lambchop

So he wasn't before?

Every time there is a gay argument the actual gay people say they were always gay

I'm not gay i'm just fussy

[warrenpenalver]

Originally Posted by Chip

In the case of scum like the bulger killers I suspect they are so fucked up mentally they arent particuarly gay or straight, you have to be able to relate to someone else as a person first after all to be really one or the other, and im sure they cant do that properly.

Plus having spent most of thier formative teen years in all male environments its not really surprising that at the very least they swing both ways even if it was initially just to gain sexual gratification in a way other than wanking Its quite common in prisons for people to be bi due to the nature of the circumstances. Plus some dont have a choice

Originally Posted by **T**

I'm not gay i'm just fussy

Excuses excuses

[busa bob]

John Venables new name is DAVID CALVERT he now lives in FLEETWOOD, Lancashire..He's raped a 19yr old girl in school grounds in WARRINGTON..
He spent time at barton child unit so knows the area, some prison wardens dont think this should be kept quiet....

TEXT i recieved earlier today, when will they ever stop? if it was my child they raped id be on a murder charge cos id have fuckin killed the evil bastard... This country is proper fucked up, give them new identitys and they still bein evil !! someone needs to put a stop to it

[wirralphil]

Originally Posted by busa bob

John Venables new name is DAVID CALVERT he now lives in FLEETWOOD, Lancashire..He's raped a 19yr old girl in school grounds in WARRINGTON..
He spent time at barton child unit so knows the area, some prison wardens dont think this should be kept quiet....

TEXT i recieved earlier today, when will they ever stop? if it was my child they raped id be on a murder charge cos id have fuckin killed the evil bastard... This country is proper fucked up, give them new identitys and they still bein evil !! someone needs to put a stop to it

His name is not David Calvert. David Calvert is a lad i went to school with, moved from the wirral years back after he commited fraud when he was 17.

[Chip]

Originally Posted by wirralphil

His name is not David Calvert. David Calvert is a lad i went to school with, moved from the wirral years back after he commited fraud when he was 17.

LOTS of people are called david calvert, just google the name and im sure you will find a few, so just cause you know someone called that doesnt mean he isnt too.

But sod believing anything that important off a viral text message TBH!

[wirralphil]

Originally Posted by Chip

LOTS of people are called david calvert, just google the name and im sure you will find a few, so just cause you know someone called that doesnt mean he isnt too.

But sod believing anything that important off a viral text message TBH!

It's the same lad Chip.

Not many lads called David Calvert born in 1982 who came from the wirral and was charged with fraud when he was 16/17 ad spent time in a YOI

[Little Vik]

Are you guys for real?!! You cant spread stuff like that without knowing the truth. What happens if the real david calvert now gets beaten up / murdered because this viral text is going round. Does that make what happened to James better? more innocent people and families getting hurt.
the papers started off with one story, then theyve turned it into another. Believe nothing you read until a time when it will be confirmed

Whilst i totally agree these are the absolute scum of the earth who should never have been let out. We live in a society of innocence until proven guilty (one i totally support) and how on earth could any jury in the land give this SEPERATE case a fair trial. The bottom line is they shouldnt have been let them out at all because they are obviously very very disturbed individuals to do the things they did let alone at such a young age and to a child. All that will happen if the details are published and it goes to trial, he will appeal as its against his human rights (yes bull shit i agree) for the press to prejudice the case, then he will be let out again. And then we will have an evil man back on our streets.

[wirralphil]

Little Vik read my reply more carefully

[Chip]

Some interesting reading on the 2 lads backgrounds:

Venables:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/n.../bulger/8.html

Thompson:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/n.../bulger/7.html

[nikkic37]

i say kill him he has takin a 2 year olds life dont deserve to live even 17years on and there still walkin around breathing NO NO NO john venables little bread trails are about to end there will be leaks its a matter of time now clocks ticking and the day it happens there will be blood and noone will even shed a tear... james bulger will always be remembered in every liverpool persons heart ....james bulger is the heart of liverpool might not be here babes but your not gone

[nikkic37]

i havent had the courage to no wat exactly happened to james bulger as little things i heard was hard to believe .....what happened to james really wats the true story thats what i wanna no so them pair can recieve the same but treble

[cossiejay]

Originally Posted by nikkic37

i say kill him he has takin a 2 year olds life dont deserve to live even 17years on and there still walkin around breathing NO NO NO john venables little bread trails are about to end there will be leaks its a matter of time now clocks ticking and the day it happens there will be blood and noone will even shed a tear... james bulger will always be remembered in every liverpool persons heart ....james bulger is the heart of liverpool might not be here babes but your not gone

he is remembered and not just in liverpool ,the killer gets another 2 years and the tax payer is left to foot another bill for £250000 for him to have another new id when he gets out