rules and regs on chassis mods

[M K]

Yeah mate, il just leave it because I don't want it on a q! As said there is plenty of cars on this forum alone that should be q's and/or need an IVA that have not been done for example, Ag's focos, aly's orange fiesta chips nova the cossie mini beefy's s1 etc etc

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[M K]

Just have to play it and see what happens, mines not much of a road car now anyway so bar maybe a handfull of times a year it won't matter just didn't want a q plate and the insurance hassle and peoples opinions that anything on a q is worth Fu*c all

[Mark V8]

Originally Posted by Horney

THat's the way most people do it now, problem is more and more people are getting caught. Several cars have been forced into trailer queens as they just won't pass the test without major rebuilding. They're getting caught out come MOT time.. As these cars that have been in progress for years finally make it out of sheds/garages and roll into and MOT station the Computer MOT flags up anomolies with engine numbers and VOSA are all over it like flies round poop. As soon as they spot an dengine conversion or similar the cars V5 is confiscated and the registration removed making the car illegal to use on the road until re registered after passing the relevant test. Harsh but this was always gong to happen when they started computerising the MOT system.

nick

Surley engine swaps are OK if you do not chop the body about ?

I was told by my MOT guy that the car will just be emissions tested for the year of the engine ?

Mark

[warrenpenalver]

the way to get round it is for companys offering conversions such as AG to go down the "low volume"/kit car route and as long as your using a new build monocoque it doesnt really matter for construction and use wether such an item is a butchered new ford item apart from copyright issues. But DVLA isnt concerned by copyright.

Plenty of kit cars use modified new chassis from something else or a copy design of something elese yet still able to get through IVA to get a donor age related plate.

In simple terms, rally cars would not still be able to be registered on a new/age related plate under IVA if there wasnt a way round it. after all, rally cars have to be road legal. And rally cars in most cases use a highly modified monocoque.

[Horney]

Yeah engine swaps are fine, as long as you tell the DVLA. I'll make up 2 examples.

Example 1. Bob. Bob has a 98 KA and he sticks a RST lump in it. He sends off the conversion paperwork and the V5C with the changes on to the DVLA, they're happy update the V5 with the right numbers. Bob takes his KA for an MOT all the numbers at the DVLA fed to the MOT computer match the car, his car passes the MOT and a certificate is issued. Job's a gooden.

Example 2. Dave. Dave also KA in which he's fitted a RST lump but naughty Dave hasn't told the DVLA. Dave takes his KA for an MOT and the computer shows a different Engine number than Dave's car. This will prompt the computer to tell VOSA that the car requires inspection. It's at this point that Dave could or could not be in the poop as this is when they asses how many points the car has remaining in the points scheme and whether or not it requires an IVA and a Q plate.

Things can be a little murkier however. The DVLA system has more information on each vehicle than is printed on the V5. You are supposed to notify the DVLA of all changes to the vehicle even if they are not on the V5. As these computer systems are used more comprehensively by VOSA, MOT stations and the Police they will be fed more of the detail.

So taking MK's 4x4 Fiesta as an example he could be fine for a while but at somepoint a computer is going to tell a copper/MOT man/VOSA inspector that that car was 2WD when new. They'll see it clearly isn't now and will want the car inspected to check it can still be registered on the points system or if it needs to be IVA'd and issued a Q plate once it's passed.

All this legislation has been around for nearly 30 years but it's the computerisation of all the records that's leading people to be caught, added to the fact that most modders have no idea this legislation even really existed. It's hardly well publicized, but ignorance is never a defence.

ACE are an organisation who are currently trying to get this information out to modified car enthusiasts of all marques and to work with the modders and DVLA to clarify exactly where people stand. Even to the level of helping out with individual cases.

nick

[Mark V8]

Horney, you seem to know you rules and regs

Hypothetical question for you if you don't mind.

If I had a year 2000 car that requires a CAT test and fitted a year 2000 motorbike engine on carbs that never had a CAT from the factory how would the emissions be tested?

Cheers

Mark

[M K]

I've never known
an mot tester to check engine
numbers really so if I changed the v5 to suit the new engine block number and the new engine cc capacity would this flag up someone to
hunt me down for an iva because the mot tester will be putting in matching
numbers to the v5 and all will come across ok,

obviously different if visa or plod actually stop you to inspect the car, but il take my chances on that

[rs tingle]

looks like iv opened up a can of worms lol
so what about all these mk1 escorts an mk2 escorts with the 4 link bars there basically not legal too are they

[warrenpenalver]

probably not although youd have a hard time prooving when the work was carried out.

[rs tingle]

Originally Posted by warrenpenalver

probably not although youd have a hard time prooving when the work was carried out.

true mate

[Horney]

Originally Posted by V8 EsCos

Horney, you seem to know you rules and regs

Hypothetical question for you if you don't mind.

If I had a year 2000 car that requires a CAT test and fitted a year 2000 motorbike engine on carbs that never had a CAT from the factory how would the emissions be tested?

Cheers

Mark

This I'm unsure of. CAT's are not required for an MOT though, it's only the effect they have on the emissions that's tested. You can therefore in theory remove a CAT from a 2010 car and if you can get the emissions down to the same level as with the CAT it will pass. It'll probably run like a bag of balls though.

As a rule of thumb for emissions at MOT the test is on the gae of the car or engine, which ever is the older. So new engine in old skool car is fine. Old skool engine in new car needs to meet the emissions of the car not the engine.

Nick

[Horney]

Originally Posted by warrenpenalver

probably not although youd have a hard time prooving when the work was carried out.

The get out clause of it was done ages ago is pretty much closed now. :-(

[Horney]

Originally Posted by M K

I've never known
an mot tester to check engine
numbers really so if I changed the v5 to suit the new engine block number and the new engine cc capacity would this flag up someone to
hunt me down for an iva because the mot tester will be putting in matching
numbers to the v5 and all will come across ok,

obviously different if visa or plod actually stop you to inspect the car, but il take my chances on that

If the V5 info on engine numbers is correct (and they should check it on an MOT) then you'll be fine in the short term.

The problem comes with the more and more info being required. I read recently of an MOT tester testing a Citreon Picasso. The data on the DVLA computer was sparse and it was asking him to complete the trim level. THis sort of info isnt on the V5 but is stored on with DVLA. This is where you could become unstuck if someone flags up your car is AWD and not FWD.

If you check the link I posted on the first page of this thread it includes details of ACE which I think you'll find an interesting site to read. They seem like a top bunch who are really out to help modders understand and work within the rules. I'm sure if you email them they'll be happy to discuss the finer points of your actual build and give you advice which you are free to take or ignore. The general advice is to build within the rules now to avoid heart ache in the future. So even if you don't submit a car for IVA (it does cost circa Ł500!!!) at least if you build it with a possible future test in mind and you do get pulled up you stand a good chance of passing.

Nick

[M K]

I'm not worried about it failing as it would pass the test I'm just bothered about it going on a q plate, and Reading all the info there now way you can convert a car from 1 wheel drive to the other without nodding outside the regs and going on a q,

I will change engine numbers and
cc when ready and just wait till I'm made to take the test etc

cheers for all the good info though,

[c20tbo]

My 106 cos 4x4 has had the engine size changed on the v5? it has its original bulkhead, innerwings infact the bay is as it was ect, only change is modified tunnel (not sierra item) and rear end set up but still has all its original chassis.It was mot'd when i bought it.

[warrenpenalver]

Originally Posted by Horney

Old skool engine in new car needs to meet the emissions of the car not the engine.

not true, its whichever is older!

[Mark V8]

Originally Posted by warrenpenalver

not true, its whichever is older!

That's what I was lead to believe by my MOT guy.

Mark

[Horney]

Originally Posted by warrenpenalver

not true, its whichever is older!

yeah my bad, it was late last night and I was tired when I typed that.

nick

[Horney]

Originally Posted by M K

I'm not worried about it failing as it would pass the test I'm just bothered about it going on a q plate, and Reading all the info there now way you can convert a car from 1 wheel drive to the other without nodding outside the regs and going on a q,

I will change engine numbers and
cc when ready and just wait till I'm made to take the test etc

cheers for all the good info though,

The stigma of Q plate is a bit fictional. It won't alter your insurance (assuming you are declaring all your mods) and as the car is such a specialised vehicle it'll have no effect on resale value. In fact if the car come sdocumented that it's been fully inspected and passed tests then I would have thought it would add to the value.

Nick

[Horney]

Originally Posted by c20tbo

My 106 cos 4x4 has had the engine size changed on the v5? it has its original bulkhead, innerwings infact the bay is as it was ect, only change is modified tunnel (not sierra item) and rear end set up but still has all its original chassis.It was mot'd when i bought it.

That's OK, it'll pass an MOT but with the modified tunnel it should be IVA'd as it no longer has enough points to maintain it's identity. There are probably 100's of cars out there in the same position as yours that have been built for years and years. It's the modernisation of all the systems used by VOSA and Police that is cuasing these vehicles to occasionally get spotted and tested.

Nick

[alistairolsen]

Rally cars get an age related plate cos they dont use some scabby donor, they use new parts.

Yes youre right, there are hundreds of cars out there that legally need a test and dont have one. Just cos some people get away wit it doesnt mean its right. For instanmce every bobtailed offroader (cut down chassis) Needs one.

[c20tbo]

It may already have been IVA'D to be honest, will have to look through doc's think its also changed to 4x4 on v5 also.

[percybigun]

Originally Posted by Horney

The stigma of Q plate is a bit fictional. It won't alter your insurance (assuming you are declaring all your mods) and as the car is such a specialised vehicle it'll have no effect on resale value. In fact if the car come sdocumented that it's been fully inspected and passed tests then I would have thought it would add to the value.

Nick

but lets face it, many people dont like to own a Q.

also the police tend to pull over most modified cars anyway, if it has a Q plate it would look even more dodgy to them.

[Horney]

Originally Posted by percybigun

but lets face it, many people dont like to own a Q.

also the police tend to pull over most modified cars anyway, if it has a Q plate it would look even more dodgy to them.

I'd say if it had a Q late it would look to be less dodgy as that shows it's been looked at by the authorities and deemed road worthy.

Nick