More bits for project ' Queen '.
14-12-2014, 02:30 PM
#361
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14-12-2014, 04:09 PM
#367
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14-12-2014, 04:11 PM
#368
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14-12-2014, 04:13 PM
#369
10K+ Poster!!
15-12-2014, 02:12 PM
#371
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Just heard from Mark the new CP Pistons have arrived from the States along with the Pistons for his Porsche. My new cams are also now built up & ready to go to the Vibration people. Im off to pick up the fuel tomorrow & will stay overnight as I don't want to travel too far in a single day. This is almost the last thing that is needed so its all go when the parts come back from Vibration.
Only choice of injectors remain & that's held pending testing with a 870bhp EVO to see just how much more Power this FTW Purple makes. Tests suggest it makes 10/12% over normal 106 so if Mark sees close to 950 from that engine we know we are a big step towards 1000bhp.
We are trying on this lads & taking all the time in the world & looking under every stone we can. The EVO is on a 9180 so it will indicate the Power the YB could make. Its probably not 1000bhp as the Turbo has an overspeed cut-off but we will push it to that point with as much boost as we can stuff down its throat. If we are to see 1000bhp on a YB its probably going to be on the GTX4202 which has a lot more lag than the 9180 so I don't expect the 42 to see service in the car its just outdated, Powerful but outdated.
When the build starts in January I will start a new thread with pics etc.
Only choice of injectors remain & that's held pending testing with a 870bhp EVO to see just how much more Power this FTW Purple makes. Tests suggest it makes 10/12% over normal 106 so if Mark sees close to 950 from that engine we know we are a big step towards 1000bhp.
We are trying on this lads & taking all the time in the world & looking under every stone we can. The EVO is on a 9180 so it will indicate the Power the YB could make. Its probably not 1000bhp as the Turbo has an overspeed cut-off but we will push it to that point with as much boost as we can stuff down its throat. If we are to see 1000bhp on a YB its probably going to be on the GTX4202 which has a lot more lag than the 9180 so I don't expect the 42 to see service in the car its just outdated, Powerful but outdated.
When the build starts in January I will start a new thread with pics etc.
15-12-2014, 04:46 PM
#374
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15-12-2014, 04:54 PM
#375
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15-12-2014, 05:02 PM
#376
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18-12-2014, 04:41 PM
#377
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The more I look into to get 1000bhp the harder it gets.
Because of the fuel we are using with a bsfc around 1 means we need a pump able to supply 720 litres/hr. Now the hard bit we need it to supply that at 113psi because of the 60psi we need to cater for.
My Aeromotive pump is useless & down to 250 litres/hr at that PSI.
You would require 3x Deatschwerks 350i pumps to cope & this would be the cheapest solution as they are Ł170 each. The Protec Veyron P1 pump is more powerful but 2 would be required however that's Ł1400 of hard earned lolly gone. Also with 3 350i pumps the amps drawn (60A) is beyond my Accuvolt system which blows its fuse at 50 amps. A 100A version is available but costs Ł1000.
My head hurts at the mo
.
Taking the cams & pistons to Vibration Free in the morning to get them in before Xmas. Delivered 38 litres of this rather silly fuel to Marks today.
Because of the fuel we are using with a bsfc around 1 means we need a pump able to supply 720 litres/hr. Now the hard bit we need it to supply that at 113psi because of the 60psi we need to cater for.
My Aeromotive pump is useless & down to 250 litres/hr at that PSI.
You would require 3x Deatschwerks 350i pumps to cope & this would be the cheapest solution as they are Ł170 each. The Protec Veyron P1 pump is more powerful but 2 would be required however that's Ł1400 of hard earned lolly gone. Also with 3 350i pumps the amps drawn (60A) is beyond my Accuvolt system which blows its fuse at 50 amps. A 100A version is available but costs Ł1000.
My head hurts at the mo
.Taking the cams & pistons to Vibration Free in the morning to get them in before Xmas. Delivered 38 litres of this rather silly fuel to Marks today.
18-12-2014, 07:30 PM
#379
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
Don`t now of any 1000bhp engine from jenspeed, but it is another engine builder here, Volden racing who claim to built an mk1 1000bhp yb.
18-12-2014, 08:03 PM
#381
Jems have built 2 1000hp engines, but they may be dyno queens, 1 has never been in a car the other has but not sure if it's run full power.
Can't see there being many if any that have run a genuine 1000hp in a true road car.
Rods could be a first.
Can't see there being many if any that have run a genuine 1000hp in a true road car.
Rods could be a first.
18-12-2014, 08:15 PM
#382
The only people that say the jems engine did 1000bhp just there dyno
Karl (scooby slayer) and Rod have both put speed to the test and shown physical power needed to get to a speed in a time needed ! All that dyno'd 1000bhp engine has done is sit on a dyno and generated figures whether there correct or not is yet to be seen and also reliability , so i am not excited over that dyno
Karl (scooby slayer) and Rod have both put speed to the test and shown physical power needed to get to a speed in a time needed ! All that dyno'd 1000bhp engine has done is sit on a dyno and generated figures whether there correct or not is yet to be seen and also reliability , so i am not excited over that dyno
18-12-2014, 08:21 PM
#383
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1000bhp can be achieved at less than 2.8 bar of boost if you open up the ports to say 28mm & fit wilder cams. Then fuel pressure can be at 90psi which is more optimum for the pumps & its not such a problem. What we are doing is maintaining what we had before below 6k but using a fuel that will see the graph up by 10% or so & then adding boost to maintain torque. The maths say 657ft-lb @ 8k = 1000BHP its maths & don't lie.
We are also using a fuel that uses 40% more than any race fuel so that adds to the problem.
I have produced graphs backed up by the maths to show what we are trying to achieve. I intend to show the maths behind this in a new thread.
Don't confuse 1000bhp at any cost with a 1000bhp engine that has street car power/torque below 5k they are completely different levels of difficulty.
It will probably require 4x1300cc & 4x 1600cc injectors to supply the fuel. The problem with the aeromotive pumps are they are not designed to work above 90psi the graphs I have show this. My pump is down to 250litres/hr at 113psi so 3 would be required.
The Veyron P1 look good & are adjustable by the ECU & could be used within the ampere range of my Accuvolt but they would cost Ł1400.
Last edited by Rod-Tarry; 18-12-2014 at 08:35 PM.
19-12-2014, 12:03 PM
#386
Is it because of the race fuel that you need 720 liters/hr? Because with regular fuel it should be much less. If you extrapolate what fuel a 350 BHP YB on dark greens uses (4x 381 cc/min@ 3 bar) you get about 1.52 liter/minute. So I would expect that for reaching 1000 bhp on regular fuel would require about 3x 1.52 x 60 = 273 liter/hr. So do you need more than 2.5 times more fuel because you are using race fuel?
19-12-2014, 01:43 PM
#387
Wow Rod ! Those injectors flow some serious cc,s wonder how long a tank of fuel would last under full chat.
Great work and thought going into this project.
Remember reading in ff a grey saff was being built to contend with yours for the 200+ mph title. Think it was a failed tuner claiming big things lol.
Great work and thought going into this project.
Remember reading in ff a grey saff was being built to contend with yours for the 200+ mph title. Think it was a failed tuner claiming big things lol.
19-12-2014, 02:58 PM
#388
Happily retired
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800/6.34
Is it because of the race fuel that you need 720 liters/hr? Because with regular fuel it should be much less. If you extrapolate what fuel a 350 BHP YB on dark greens uses (4x 381 cc/min@ 3 bar) you get about 1.52 liter/minute. So I would expect that for reaching 1000 bhp on regular fuel would require about 3x 1.52 x 60 = 273 liter/hr. So do you need more than 2.5 times more fuel because you are using race fuel?
Dont work like that calcs below.
400bhp on pump & 1000bhp on FTW.
Brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) of pump fuel=.6 of FTW = 1.0
fuel required = target bhp X bsfc = 400 X .6 = 240lbs-hr for 400bhp
= 1000 x 1.0 = 1000lbs-hr for 1000bhp
convert to gal/hr
= lbs-hr/ weight of gallon = 240/6.34 = 37 gal/hr for 400bhp on pump
=1000/6.34= 158 gal/hr for 1000bhp on FTW
convert to lit/hr X 4.54 = 37 X 4.54 = 168 lit/hr for 400bhp on pump
= 158 X 4.54 = 718 lit/hr for 1000bhp on pump.
The other problem is the psi the pump is required to supply the fuel at.
400bhp @ 30psi = 53 (static) + 30 = 83 psi.
1000bhp @ 60psi = 53 (static) + 60= 113psi.
At 80 psi my Aeromative can supply = 575 lit-hr
At 110 psi it drops to = 285 lit-hr
Last edited by Rod-Tarry; 19-12-2014 at 03:01 PM.
19-12-2014, 03:29 PM
#389
Thanks for explaining it. But what I don't understand is why the 400 bhp engine already needs 168 liter/hr.
My example of 350 bhp would require 350 x 0.6 = 210 lbs-hr, which is 33 gallon/hr, which is equal to 150 liter/hr.
But with 4x 803 injectors 350 bhp is possible I believe. And 4x 381cc/min is 1.52 liter/minute, so that would be 91 liter/hr.
The difference is quite big, so something doesn't add up. Do the 803 injectors actually flow more (due to a higher pressure?)? Or is the BSFC lower in that situation?
But in principle it is the difference between the pump fuel and the special fuel you are using. I understand the difficulty in getting that amount of fuel at that pressure. But are you seriously going to run at about 4 bar boost?
My example of 350 bhp would require 350 x 0.6 = 210 lbs-hr, which is 33 gallon/hr, which is equal to 150 liter/hr.
But with 4x 803 injectors 350 bhp is possible I believe. And 4x 381cc/min is 1.52 liter/minute, so that would be 91 liter/hr.
The difference is quite big, so something doesn't add up. Do the 803 injectors actually flow more (due to a higher pressure?)? Or is the BSFC lower in that situation?
But in principle it is the difference between the pump fuel and the special fuel you are using. I understand the difficulty in getting that amount of fuel at that pressure. But are you seriously going to run at about 4 bar boost?
19-12-2014, 04:51 PM
#390
Happily retired
Thread Starter
Thanks for explaining it. But what I don't understand is why the 400 bhp engine already needs 168 liter/hr.
My example of 350 bhp would require 350 x 0.6 = 210 lbs-hr, which is 33 gallon/hr, which is equal to 150 liter/hr.
But with 4x 803 injectors 350 bhp is possible I believe. And 4x 381cc/min is 1.52 liter/minute, so that would be 91 liter/hr.
The difference is quite big, so something doesn't add up. Do the 803 injectors actually flow more (due to a higher pressure?)? Or is the BSFC lower in that situation?
But in principle it is the difference between the pump fuel and the special fuel you are using. I understand the difficulty in getting that amount of fuel at that pressure. But are you seriously going to run at about 4 bar boost?
My example of 350 bhp would require 350 x 0.6 = 210 lbs-hr, which is 33 gallon/hr, which is equal to 150 liter/hr.
But with 4x 803 injectors 350 bhp is possible I believe. And 4x 381cc/min is 1.52 liter/minute, so that would be 91 liter/hr.
The difference is quite big, so something doesn't add up. Do the 803 injectors actually flow more (due to a higher pressure?)? Or is the BSFC lower in that situation?
But in principle it is the difference between the pump fuel and the special fuel you are using. I understand the difficulty in getting that amount of fuel at that pressure. But are you seriously going to run at about 4 bar boost?
Yes your injectors will flow more at higher pressure. Yes we are going to run circa 4 bar. I was going to start a new thread as to why Ive arrived at that figure 3.94 bar to obtain the 656ft-lb of torque @ 8k which will give 1000bhp. Its a theory because the bhp per .1bar of boost is something you can calculate but we know its between 10/12bhp on engines dynoed so I have used 11bhp in my calcs.
We need this boost because we are not making the ports larger or cams wilder just using the air-pump we strap to the engine to increase Torque.
Horsepower = Torque x 2 pi x rpm / 33000 which simplifies to:
Horsepower = Torque x rpm / 5252.
Hence Torque = Horsepower X 5252 / 8000 = 656 ft-lb.
QED.
19-12-2014, 05:06 PM
#391
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Cams & Pistons taken to Vibration free today will pick up on the 9th January.
Next job is mods to the dry sump system, these were started Months ago but need a trial fit in the car this will happen early Jan 2015.
Next job is mods to the dry sump system, these were started Months ago but need a trial fit in the car this will happen early Jan 2015.
Last edited by Rod-Tarry; 19-12-2014 at 08:51 PM.
19-12-2014, 05:36 PM
#393
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
How about using a belt driven pump? This one is good for approx 2160 lt/hr @ 100psi (10.5 US Gallons
Per Minute is 8 UK GPM) with a rail pressure up to 150psi
http://www.stevemorrisengines.com/st...fuel-pump.html
http://www.magnafuel.com/products/efi/pumps/MP-4203.htm
But maybe a bit overkill? I think the smallest belt driven one the do works out at approx 1080 ltr/hour (UK)
Or they do some electric pumps for 2500+bhp engines but cant find flow info for the electric ones on their site:
http://www.magnafuel.com/products/efi/pumps/index.htm
Per Minute is 8 UK GPM) with a rail pressure up to 150psi
http://www.stevemorrisengines.com/st...fuel-pump.html
http://www.magnafuel.com/products/efi/pumps/MP-4203.htm
But maybe a bit overkill? I think the smallest belt driven one the do works out at approx 1080 ltr/hour (UK)
Or they do some electric pumps for 2500+bhp engines but cant find flow info for the electric ones on their site:
http://www.magnafuel.com/products/efi/pumps/index.htm
19-12-2014, 08:58 PM
#395
cossie fan (unluckerly)
19-12-2014, 09:20 PM
#396
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20-12-2014, 09:30 AM
#397
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Sometime back after talking to Mark we decided on a stratagy to have an attemt at producing a road going 1000bhp YB. Below is a graph of what we are trying to achieve & how we will try to do it.
The RED lines are the orginal 838bhp engine Power/Torque curves they are very coservative because since that Dyno session in 2008 the GT4202 has been updated to a GTX4202 the exhaust cam changed to one stage wilder & ports opened by .25mm. The single throttle body has also been changed to ITB's. This should result in at least 30/40 extra horses at the Topend but i have ignored that for this exercise.
The GREEN lines are the estimated gains when using FTW Purple. Tests on the net show it will make 10/15% gains over normal race fuel at the same boost & ignition curve. I have used an 8% gain so again very conservative.
The BLUE line on the Power curve shows the gains needed to make 1000bhp @ 8k rpm.
The BLUE line on the Torque curve is calculated from -
Torque= Horsepower x 5252/8000.
The WHITE line is the orginal Boost curve 2.84bar(41psi) .
The DARK BLUE line on the Boost curve is calculated by using a realistic 11bhp gain in bhp for each .1bar increase in Boost. It peaks at 3.93bar (57psi) to make the 657 ft-lb of Torque required to make the 1000bhp.
If the latest mods do give the gains expected then maybe only 3.6bar (52psi) Boost will be required.
The above will not be easy im sure but its a plan.
The RED lines are the orginal 838bhp engine Power/Torque curves they are very coservative because since that Dyno session in 2008 the GT4202 has been updated to a GTX4202 the exhaust cam changed to one stage wilder & ports opened by .25mm. The single throttle body has also been changed to ITB's. This should result in at least 30/40 extra horses at the Topend but i have ignored that for this exercise.
The GREEN lines are the estimated gains when using FTW Purple. Tests on the net show it will make 10/15% gains over normal race fuel at the same boost & ignition curve. I have used an 8% gain so again very conservative.
The BLUE line on the Power curve shows the gains needed to make 1000bhp @ 8k rpm.
The BLUE line on the Torque curve is calculated from -
Torque= Horsepower x 5252/8000.
The WHITE line is the orginal Boost curve 2.84bar(41psi) .
The DARK BLUE line on the Boost curve is calculated by using a realistic 11bhp gain in bhp for each .1bar increase in Boost. It peaks at 3.93bar (57psi) to make the 657 ft-lb of Torque required to make the 1000bhp.
If the latest mods do give the gains expected then maybe only 3.6bar (52psi) Boost will be required.
The above will not be easy im sure but its a plan.
20-12-2014, 06:11 PM
#399
Advanced PassionFord User
The AG focus runs 50+ psi, I'm sure they don't use that funky fuel either. Why not chat to their engine builder as they have already achieved what you are trying to do?
