cossiedad

Hi all. I need some help and advice please.

As some of you will know I have been rebuilding my 2wd sapphire and today was the day to turn the key. Unfortunately there was no start. The engine turned over fine but didn't even cough as if it were trying to start. So I checked the obvious below.

Spark at the plugs.
Fuel up to the injector rail (as there was a leak from the fuel feed line in the engine bay which I fixed)

I also took the spark plug out after trying to start it and it was dry. I expected it to be wet with fuel but nothing.

I checked the injector plug with a multimeter and when cranking there is around 4V (obviously pulsing not constant).

The engine has been sat for around a year without running but built up. I have replaced the injector rail as I had a polished one to go on. Injectors have been externally cleaned but not tested. However I would see no reason why all 4 of them have packed up together?

Any ideas please guys? If you need the spec of the engine please ask but I would think it should start regardless?

I have only got Tuesday to get it running as it is booked in for a base setup on Wednesday am and MOT in the afternoon, and I am working the days inbetween.

cheeRS

Paul_RS

iTrader: (4)

Is your map sensor plugged in? If its not the injectors won't work. Check the engine bay wiring to all sensors as well.

scoobydooby914

Could be crank sensor fault possibly

cossiedad

All wiring is plugged in - I checked all that too. In response to Paul RS - is the pulsed 4V coming to the injector not the firing 'signal' so-to-speak? It's not even like they're firing at the wrong time, cos the plugs are dry so no fuel in the cylinder.
How do I check the crank sensor? And what does it control/effect?
cheeRS

MannheimAlex

Is the fuel pump priming?

cossiedad

To clarify, there is fuel up to the rail.

And there is spark at the plugs.

But the plugs are dry, so therefore the fuel is not making it into the cylinders.

The injector plugs have a pulsing voltage of about 4V.

Please help! lol

cheeRS

cossiedad

Bump. All answers appreciated but please read thread 1st.

cheeRS

tabetha

Have you checked the LIVE 12volts at the injectors ?, if they don't get this they won't open, hence no fuel, the rail is fed by the same supply that goes to the fuel pump relay to energise it, but you may have a broken wire/bad connection somewhere stopping the live feed at the rails, the negative pulsed supply from the ecu is there, so that's good just check the live now, you can always put a live to any of the injectors LIVE supply side and it will light up all 4 of them, then at least you'd know you were on the right track.
tabetha

cossiedad

Ah, thanks Tabetha. I didn't realise the other pin should be permanent live and switched by the negative. I actually thought it was the other way around so left it when I got the pulsed voltage. I have fitted a new fuel pump loom and it didn't have any reference or connection to go to the injectors, infact it was a standalone loom bar the ignition live from the original pump loom. The car was running 044 pump before it was stripped and I bought it, if that makes any difference?
Where would the live to the injectors come from so I can check it back to source?
cheeRS

tabetha

There are two(or more) relays near the ecu connector, about 10-14" away, one of these is triggered by the ecu and outputs LIVE to the amal valve and fuel rail, as well as energising the fuel pump relay(when receiving a valid crank signal, or for PRIME).
Just to clarify the PULSED signal is NEGATIVE(earth) from the ECU, the relay supplies LIVE 12V to each injector all the time the ignition is switched on(position 2 or start).
DON'T get the two supplies at the injectors mixed up, just see which wire is the same colour on all four, this will be the LIVE from the relay.
tabetha

cossiedad

Bump for today.

The above suggestion from Tabetha sounds viable, however if on Tuesday I check it and it is fine, I would like some more things to try. I only have Tuesday to get it fixed as it is booked in for setup and MOT on Wednesday, so the more things I can have to check the better.

cheeRS

mechanic28

iTrader: (5)

does the amel valve click when you turn the ignition on ?

cossiedad

I'll check all of this on Tuesday when I'm back to the car. The car isn't in the same place as I am, so I only get a couple of days a week to work on it. If the AMAL valve doesn't click, how do I fault find with it?

I'm thinking it is the feed to the injectors as I had thought the circuit was the other way around, however I need a list of things to check in case it isn't.

cheeRS

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

The amal valve shares it's feed with the ISCV and fuel pump via the fuel pump relay, we know the pump is working so therefore this is working!

Contary to whats been said the ECU relay supplies the feed to the injectors NOT the fuel pump relay, you have power to your ECU and your injectors from what you said, the 4V sounds normal as the ECU pulses the injectors.

The above applies to the whole family, for some real geeky info the ISCV feed is moved on the 4x4/L8 to the ECU relay, not that this effects you.

I think the injectors may well be working, remember you only have the prime to get you started, it is only when the engine is then running does the pump run, so to me it makes sense that the plugs arn't going to be wet.

Martin

cossiedad

Bumpedy Bump for any more suggestions to try before I go get stuck in tmrw.

cheeRS

cossiedad

Right. A good 6hrs of working on her today and now I'm more confused than I was before!
Am no longer getting pulsed 4V on injectors. Both injector wires are now showing permanent 12V when ignition is on!!!! We didn't do anything to make this change other than charge the battery. It was the 1st thing we checked today and it had changed.

Have also unplugged all 4 injectors and whichever one I plug in, then makes the negative wires go to 12V on all 4.

I also have a wire from the ECU plug which is yellow/blue. I think it's pin 29 (above pin 10 iirc) which is doing strange things. At some point a previous owner had the car taken into a garage with no start. They scotch-locked into this wire and ran a new wire to earth (that's all I know as it is on a receipt in the history). When run across the voltmeter it shows 12V, but only when it is put to an earth point, does the ignition live to the fuel pump work.
So I have an 'earth' wire, showing 12V, which only works when earthed! But from what I can make out from the wiring diagram it should be a battery positive feed!!!!!

We have tried a different ECU and chip and checked all fuses.
I know this sounds strange, and it's had 3 of us scratching our heads today, but it's true.

Anyone have any ideas?

Also, can anyone please list the coloured relays I should have above the passenger footwell/under the ECU, what they control, what colour relay does what, and how many I should have?

cheeRS

tabetha

From memory there are at least 3 relays there plus 1 relay holder without relay, this is a purple relay holder for the air con where fitted, even where air con is not fitted the relay holder will be there, there is a(black ?) relay with a 30amp green fuse next to it for the abs.
There are then 2 yellow relays, one is the main power relay, which is triggered by the ignition on terminal 86, this also goes to ECU terminal number 17, as well as TPS, ISCV, CANISTER PURGE(cat models) and INJECTORS, the other yellow relay(fuel pump relay) where it enters on terminal 86, the fuel pump relay(which can be identified by having a thick black/red wire = fuel pump output) also feeds the AMAL and FUEL PUMP, it does this when also triggered by terminal 28 from the ECU(in addition to the feed at terminal 86 from the main feed relay).
Any current put across the injectors, where not opposed WILL show across BOTH terminals at each injector, as it is simply a coil winding, when the system is working as it should the opposing NEGATIVE "trigger" pulses from the ecu create a magnetic field in each injector that opens them when triggered by causing movement inside them.
If you pull the two YELLOW relays out, check that you have a feed of LIVE on terminal 30 on each, this is a battery feed, both the relays output to terminal 87 LIVE(85+86 are the triggers), so you could put a wire jumper from 30 to 87 on each relay holder if you want, this simply by passes the ignition key(YES THEY ARE THAT HARD TO STEAL HA HA!!), have the key on though when doing this just to be safe, if it then works, you know you have a main supply issue, if no live at terminal 30 at each yellow relay, that needs sorting first, though this can be "stolen" from elsewhere for fault finding purposes.
Pm me your email and I'l send you a copy of the wiring diagram.
tabetha

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

This isn't correct the ECU relay powers the ECU (Pin 20) and the fuel injectors, on 2WD the Fuel pump relay powers the ISCV, Amal valve and the Fuel pump.

Also bridging the relays as you say will power the ECU and fuel pump, but there is still one vital part that won't have power (Not going to mention it on a public forum) thus the engine won't run, so not that easy to steal!

The 12V permanent feed is correct to the injectors.

Pin 29 is the CTS so it isn't this! Pin 28 is above pin 10 and this is the fuel pump relay trigger, if this is earthed then the fuel pump will permanently run by means other than the ECU!. This should be done by the ECU, if it's not then it's not getting the correct input it needs to do so you have spark so that shows CPS to be working th. It should prime when the ignition is switched on?

Martin

cossiedad

My email is cossiedad@googlemail.com for any sensitive info/diagrams.
I am at the car now so can test immediately.
To try to clear up the fuel pump - I have fitted a new braided loom for it. It is 'standalone' in so far as it has a battery live feed running to the boot where it goes to a relay which powers the pump. It takes the ignition feed from the original pump loom there. The ignition feed is the only connection to the rest of the loom. All this is how the loom came and I have wired it as the instructions said. The pump primes when ignition goes on, and primes again after cranking, so I believe this to be working correctly. I do have fuel to the rail, I just cannot get the injectors to fire!
cheeRS

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

It must have a connection to the ECU (Pin 28) from your relay otherwise the pump would run all the time if it had a permanent earth, so you most likely have this and the original ignition feed?

Have you checked the phase sensor as I seem to remember they need input from this to start the sequential injection process, (The wires are known to corroding and shorting as well.)

Another thing could be to check the CTS.

Martin

tabetha

I took the details directly from the ford workshop manual, and pin 20 is EARTH, a shared earth with the lambda sensor, the listing says "IT COVERS BOTH THE 2WD AND 4WD COSWORTH"
Having repo'd cars for 3 years cossies are a piece of piss to steal as are 95% of pre 200 cars, but even some 2011 cars can be opened with a lighter, most likely around 1 million cars on our roads from vw/seat/skoda/ford to name a few, though it does take about oooh 5 seconds!!
tabetha

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

Then it's strange! Pin 1 and 19 are earth, 20 is live I know this from experience as well, this is the same for the whole family!



Martin

cossiedad

YIPPEE!!!!!!!!!! She lives again! BIG thanks to Tabetha and Martysmartie for all help so far.
2 injectors were stuck but once freed up all 4 now giving a healthy spray of Optimax. Phase sensor was also miles out of adjustment, and once gapped correctly it fired up.
Now have a new problem though, which I think may be easier - hopefully! lol
It starts no problem and will stay running if given throttle. When left to tick over it settles, then almost dies, the revs come up and then back down again, and then dies.
I have taken off the ISCV and it is clicking nicely. The 'plunger' inside immediately moves once ignition is on which causes the click sound. So it's moving at least. Is there a way of testing to ensure it is working correctly?
The TPS is the other thing to check I believe? I put a red one on as I was told this was 2wd? I do have a black one too which I again was told was 4wd. (My car is 2wd with L6).
The fuel filter is new (13 miles) and pump is vgc and also low mileage. Plugs are brand new from Matt Lewis.

Any advice on how to overcome the non idle issue please guys?

cheeRS

Paul_RS

iTrader: (4)

You probably need to set the base idle? Let the car get up to temp and see what it idles at with the ISCV unplugged. It should be roughly 1000 rpm. You set it with the idle screw on the throttle body.

I'd be worth taking that car for a healt check by a specialist ASAP too, just to make sure everything is as i should be

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

TPS most likely, you should have PF01 (Red) PF09 is 4x4 and black although some of these are also red.

Now the PF01 TPS has a potentiometer with a switch inside so at closed throttle it goes open circuit, it is very important this is set correctly, the ECU looks for this signal to activate it's idle and overrun stratagies. When the throttle begins to open the output will drop from 5V to around 0.5V @ WOT.

A PF09 if you have one isn't correct!

If this isn't set correctly the ECU assumes the driver has taken control (Via the throttle) and so it will make no attempt to control the idle speed and so the idle drops to the point of stalling and the ISCV brings it up again to prevent this.

It's also worth checking the base idle speed as said.

It is adjusted as said but on yours you have to undo a locknut first as 2WD, 4x4 does not have one, be sure this nut is tight when finished as they can fall out if not and are very hard and expensive to replace. You unscrew to raise idle speed and tighten to lower the speed.

Martin

Frank rafferty

hello everyone , old thread i know but i have problem with my rally car 88 sapphire, have no 12 volt supply going to injectors, but have live battery feed going to the two yellow relays under ecu, fuel pump primes but injectors aren't getting the live feed from their relay,, any info greatly appreciated cheers
frank

4x4kiwi

Hi Frank. I am no expert on this but as no one else has answered you yet (probably the middle of the night over there as I am in NZ) just looking at the ECU diagram above and reading your symptoms, it would appear either the ECU relay is faulty as it has feed in but nothing out or Depending where you are measuring this feed in it could also be the fuse on the relay. Basically with the key on you should have 12v on 2 terminals of the relay (one via the fuse) and if it is working should also be on the 3rd terminal (output) as well. I am assuming you also don't have 12v feed on pin 20 of the ECU itself. David

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

As David says, check firstly you have two supply's with the ignition on.

Martin

Frank rafferty

Hi thanks for replys , found one problem bad earth going to manifold 😳 Got engine running but its off cylinder 1 and 4 😌

martysmartie

iTrader: (1)

Spark on those cylinders?

Martin

Frank rafferty

Yea martin , it seems like its over fuelling , plugs were wet and it must be flooding itself, the 3bar map sensor is 3 years old but car sat for 2 years , what else would regulate the fuel that much ? It has webber ecu with stage 3 chip , 803's etc , but id want to have it running better than it is before i bring it to the rolling road , it just about runs the way it is

Adam-M

Have you tested the blue coolant temp sensor at back of head?

Frank rafferty

No didnt try it ? Are they troublesome?