pauldonachyrs

Would like some advice to turbo a st170 focus.

Where do i start from,is there any point of it,and wot sort of power gains would i see and wot parts to use.

Any advice would be helpfull

cheers paul.

Liberachi

Hi Paul,

I've had my focus st170 now for a few years and looked into this briefly. I've heard that the gains can be good but that it is a pretty
expensive mod overall and it's properly just better to buy a FRS

I've also heard that the kits are more difficult to get hold of now than they were before.

I'll be interested to here other peoples thoughts on this though.

Davemurphy007

I think it depends on whether you want to keep the VVT or not. If you get rid of it then you're basically doing a standard 2.0 litre Zetec Turbo build but using an ST170 head.

Best person to speak to is Simon170 as he has one of the few turbo converted ST170's in existence (possibly the only one in the UK). One thing i do know for a fact......................it sure as hell ain't cheap!

cjwood555

As Dave says, there's nothing particularly different between the ST170 and a standard 2.0L zetec as far as turboing is concerned, except for the higher standard compression. Easiest way to sort that and get a nice strong bottom end, is buy an FRS short block from Ford - £800 trade. Then you just need a turbo, manifold, frs / area six / adrenaline / whoever inlet manifold, sensors, ECU, FRS fuel pump / rail / regulator / injectors, standard focus return line (st170 is returnless high pressure fuel system), intercooler, boost/water/oil plumbing. You'd probably also want a boost controller and some gauges, bigger brakes, posher suspension, better tyres... So it's not cheap. You CAN do it for 3.5-5k, if you're lucky/patient finding parts second hand and do all the fitting yourself. Otherwise, budget around £10k.

Chris

pauldonachyrs

thanks for the advice lads...
better using another route for more power and little bit cheaper...
wot about supercharger conversions???

just want something different no wanting to go spend heeps off money on a conversion .because you never see at least half of it back when you decide to sell on

pani_k

iTrader: (1)

Similar sort of principle to a turbo really mate. With a forced induction conversion on a ST170 you can run mild levels of boost and stay on standard internals and run a decomp plate. Should be OK doing it this way just don't go chasing numbers with it and getting silly with boost. Other factor as mentioned above is getting an ECU in order to control the VVT.

pauldonachyrs

tell me more about this ecu for the vvt...

is that just like a v tec controller you see on the type r's

pauldonachyrs

ive had a frs and cossie's and so on just want something different with power lol

zvhrst

find a focus RS block and bolt the ST170 head on it,
keep the VVT

use dreamscience and have custom map,

you will see 300 bhp easy

pani_k

iTrader: (1)

Something like that. My understanding of this sort of thing isn't great but from what I have gathered, the VVT as run by the Black Oak ECU Software as standard in the focus ST170 is totally variable. With aftermarket ECUs I think they normally have a switchable output to set the VVT to change at a specific rpm (much like VTEC) but I don't know if other ECUs have a suitable output to have a varied VVT thorughout the rev range as per the standard ST170 ECU. Other problem with this is it is a very complex task to make fully variable cam timing throughout the rev range and I haven't heard of anyone successfully mapping a totally variable cam before. Most cases that keep the VVT from the ST170 engine come in at a fixed rpm.

Davemurphy007

Focus RS block is exactly the same as the 2.0 litre block is exactly the same as the ST170 block but the roads and pistons are different for each given the different applications (turbo, NA road car, high comp warm hatch).

Do NOT rely on a poxy remap to be able to cope with a forced induction conversion on an NA car/ECU, it simply will not work (despite all the 'glossy-brochure-speak' to the contrary, it's bullshit!).

It all depends what you want, reliability or cost, except the two are connected to each other and you can't have one without the other. Supercharger conversions have been done (search out Big Will's thread in the resto/projects section for a proper supercharger build) with varying levels of success (again, determined by how much money has been thrown into them) so this route will yield a lot more information than a turbo conversion.

The biggest sticking point is whether to keep the VVT or not. VVT relies on high compression which kinda goes against what you need for a turbo conversion. The black oak ECU on the 170 WILL NOT be sufficient to run a forced induction conversion so you'll need something like Pectel/Omex/Aem which will need to be installed and mapped by someone who knows what they are doing (which is going to cost but it's fundamental to the reliability of the car!). If you decide to ditch the VVT then it's no different to any other Zetec turbo build thus defeating your objective of 'being different'.

cjwood555

In theory, someone who's competent enough at using dreamscience/sct CAN make the st170 ecu (which is just a 104pin EECV, contrary to the marketing rubbish about black oak) work properly in forced induction applications, as there is a spare sensor input which can be connected to a MAP sensor and enabled/configured/used in maps using the dreamscience software with all the capabilities found as in the FRS.

The purpose of VVT in NA cars is generally (by my understanding) to introduce extra cam over-lap at low engine speeds (to increase cylinder filling) and reduce it at high engine speeds (to stop the mixture being blow/sucked straight through the cylinder and into the exhaust system), thereby linearising and improving the VE/torque throughout the rev range.

This is generally the right strategy to apply to a boosted engine as well, but only if the change to reduced overlap corresponds with boost arriving. With a supercharged engine (with a roots or twin-screw charger), boost arrives very early so there is an argument that VVT is pointles; but with a turbo'd engine, allowing extra blow-through by the extra overlap will not only help off-boost low-rpm driving, but also assist in spooling the turbo up quicker. That's one reason why Simon170's car is making a bar of boost before 3000rpm!


Also, the VVT on the ST170 is PWM driven - many aftermarket ECUs allow you to map the PWM outputs w/r/t load/speed, boost/speed etc. This includes Omex, DTA, and presumably AEM/Pectel/Motec/GoTech/etc.

It would be possible to drive it using a switched signal from e.g. a vtec controller, or a shift-light controller (or any other rpm-based switching device); but wouldn't give the full advantage (or perhaps even any) as you could easily find that the extremeties of the adjustment range do not suit the engine you build.

Hope this helps,
Chris

Davemurphy007

Chris - not going to dispute anything you've written there however I am going to highlight one bit.

This is why I have said it's not a feasible option. Dreamscience has been used in the States (where it originated from) for forced induction conversions on the SVT (which is equivalent to the ST170 over here) with varying degrees of success BUT the fuelling systems on the American models differ significantly from the European models which is why DS is not yet the 'miracle cure' which allows you convert a NA motor with a NA ECU to a forced induction application simply with a remap. I fully appreciate that someone has to do it first and they will be the guinea pigs but if you can afford to be the test bed and afford to keep rebuilding/replacing your engines when they go wrong due to insufficient/poor/experimental mapping then surely you can afford to do the job 'properly' in the first place and go for dedicated aftermarket management. You've only got to look towards someone like Blingbling who had a circa 260-280bhp supercharged ST170 running a DS map which went spectacularly wrong due to poor mapping by the DS tuner (P3000 IIRC). He had to foot the bill for another full engine to be built and has come out and said he wished he'd listened to the advice given to him beforehand and gone for aftermarket management to begin with. It's a catch 22 situation but, if it was my money, I'd go for the safer bet every time even if it meant a higher initial outlay on the build.

No arguments with anything else you wrote though.

pani_k

iTrader: (1)

Should've gone to DSHQ themselves in Hull. Where I am going after the summer to have my DSF3000 mapped. It's their product they should be very fucking hot on mapping it so I'm hoping the 500 mile round trip and cost of using their dyno and chief technician will be worth it!!

Mapping is what makes or breaks engines!!

Davemurphy007

But not only are you going to the main people who's product it is (let us know when you go, the missus is from Hull so we're there quite a lot) but you're going to have an NA remap done on an NA engine. As you and others well know, the way NA engines work and forced induction engines work is significantly different!

simon170

Bonjour!

Yes I have one

Heres what you need to know:

Its REALLY expensive
Alot more hassle than dropping in a FRS engine or bolting on a S/C
They go like stink!
You feel totally smug driving it cos it doesnt shout "look at me!"

I've had mine done for about 3 years and I dont regret it for one moment, would do it again in a heartbeat.
Infact I'm spending some more dough on it soon, more power please

Most questions seem to have been answered, but let me know if I can help.

cjwood555

Fair point Dave - it's a shame that Dreamscience have secured the exclusive rights for the SCT software over here, as it'd be nice to be able to get the software at a reasonable price to be able to investigate and play with.... The most useful exercise would be to compare the programming of an FRS ecu and the ST170 and see whether the two feature sets can be amalgamated with any success.

Equally, the above would allow the ST170's VCT map to be copied and pasted into an aftermarket ECU with a spare mappable pwm! (Which would solve both issue in a hat drop!)

Chris

zvhrst

a focus RS block is a zetec block yes,
but the sump casing, sump and oil pump etc differ also,
when i said
"get a focus RS block,
i meant the whole botoom end, that why i said
"get a focus RS block and bolt the ST170 head on"

DS will work with the st170 ecu, and anyone who maps dreamscience can do it,
there IS NO NEED for a map sensor as they already run an AFM to measure air,
as long as the person who does the custom map re-loggs all the AFM tables, and temp corection tables, against the throttle pot, thus doing away with need of a MAP sensor which the ST170 doesnt have


the only reason i wuold suggest togo aftermarket managment is for big power, NEVER reliability as you CAN NOT beat reliability of a std factory ecu

pani_k

iTrader: (1)

The thing we are debating here though mate is that the factory ECU is operating outside of its preset conditions and although there is always scope for adjustment, possibly asking it to fuel and properly manage an engine running 100+ bhp than normal might be a bit of a tough ask.

zvhrst

they both

squeeze
bang
blow

the only diference is one sucks and one is forced,

as long as detination isnt ocuring an engine is fine watever AFR's are,

it does my head in when people go on about AFRS when mapping etc,

its all about the timing and detting that killes the engines


you could run a turbo engine with 14.5:1 AFR and not melt it, but it wouldnt have muh power at you would have hardly any advance timing in the map

zvhrst

not really no,

take my car
focus RS, STD 212 bhp,
with a GT28 blufin on the std ecu, i was doing 380 bhp, that not far off double power.....
all you do is alter the AFM and temp correction tables,

any ecu that you can control these peramiters can run N/A or forced induction, you just need to alter the tables correctly

*edit, altho now i am on emerald managment and doing a lot more power, (obviously with mods) there is only so far you can alter the tables and so only so much you can do,
aftermarket managment gives u the option to ditch the AFM and run a MAP sensor which is where the big diference is,
but this guy would EASILY get 300-330bhp from remapping the std st170 ecu

pani_k

iTrader: (1)

Sorry mate let me make what I wrote a bit more comprehensive. What I meant to say is that you are asking an engine to produce 100+ bhp but by a means of which it is not familiar with i.e. a turbo.

stuart collins

iTrader: (7)

jamsport can turbo it for and remap the standard ecu

CaysE

There is no need to swap an RS short block to turbo... we have LOTS of turbo SVT (same as ST170) here in the States. Stock ST170 lump has been proven to handle in excess of 350hp (American units, at the WHEELS!) with proper tuning. You can find a lot of experienced help in the Forced Induction section of the focaljet.com forums.

zvhrst: you get a tracking number for those fogs yet?

zvhrst

but what am saying is the ECU does what you tell it to do.......

the ford ecu's are easy to work with tbh, and can be manipulated easy,


most of the german cars now are in hexidecimal code, now there a fukker!!!

ST_BEAN

tbh i dont think a focus st170 is really that tunable to the extent that your expecting some serious bhp with out using the familar routes. i.e turbo, charger. three choices from my view

1. Focus rs conversion
2. try n do a seirra etc conversion ( dont know if its possible tho)
3. Just buy yourself a evo 6, bmw m3 evo or sumthing like that n have sum change left over

CaysE

"Converting" to a Focus RS engine is a waste of money, in my opinion. The cost of purchasing and swapping the motor and ECU could be put towards a quality manifold and turbo that will fit the ST170, with plenty left over for tuning and other bits, and you end up with more power.

zvhrst: still waiting

cjwood555

I disagree - complete RS lump can be picked up for £2000 over here, without having to 'know the right people'. This is less than half the cost of doing an ST170 turbo the hard way.

pauldonachyrs

fuk wot have i started haha!

CaysE

Haha... just some friendly banter mate.

coxyboi

hi what would be needed to fit and work the rs lump if transferred???

also just for the sake of asking can you run forced induction on the standard high compression st170 engine if on a low boost level say you only wanted say 200-220bhp, would you get any gains?
(i dont quite know the physics but willing to learn) if NOT what would the side affects or dammage be?

CaysE

You certainly can. I have a 10psi supercharger on my standard SVT engine (same as the ST170) running 260bhp.

coxyboi

what did you do with the vvt, manifold and runners- keep delete?

romfordrst88

Hi mate what inlet did you use or did you get a custom one made