Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

After a couple of months of things keeping me from my car (and a lack of motivation lol) I've finally got back to it!!

But, I have a problem already...
Fitted the head to the block, fitted the cams, starting turning the inlet cam to align it ready for cam belt fitment and the valve springs on the first two to open are fully compressed and the cam will not turn any further!
This is a real ball ache because if I have to remove the head to sort it out i've wasted almost £100 worth of gasket and bolts! Not a good start!

Any idea's people who have done this, Gary, Rick, etc?

Thanks!

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

why would you do such a thing in the first place?

Versus_Creations

iTrader: (1)

what lifters do you have

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

Eh? lol
Stock black top lifters.

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

why use spacers? can you not just buy uprated springs.....its probably that its coil binding as the 'spacers' are too thick.

Canada1

Who suggested 3mm spacers/shims for the valve springs?

I always measure everything - double check spring closed height and pressures - check for coil binding etc.
I never trust anyone - measure, measure, measure.

Rick

Karlos, I used spacers as I used zetec springs in ST. You are doing it the other way round - the ST springs are longer, so you don't need spacers. Without the spacers, they should be ok but still check they are not coil bound. Your head gasket etc can be re used as they have not seen any compression pressure.

RIck

rhinopower

You've put the strings in upside down, I've done that before too, but it should of had the valve clearances checked on the bench before you bolted it to the head.

Remove the head, check the clearances on all the buckets, and you might even find you have another one upside down too, I managed 3 the first time i built up a st170 head.

juffer

Welcome back lol I have missed your threads. Are you using blacktop or st170 springs in a black top head?

dug112y

iTrader: (1)

Are you confused? Whats funny?......oh that would be you who used spacers when not req'd then trying to be a smart arse...i was trying to help you.

Rogeyboy

iTrader: (2)

Can you not take the springs out without removing the head, like on a cvh?

Rick

No, as there is no rocker to screw a tool onto. There is a a great big thing that the dealers use I think.

Rick

bomsch

iTrader: (1)

If you screw "special" pipe (wich you will buy or DIY from old spark plug and some tube) in to the spark hole and let air from compressor in the cylinder, then valves stay up and you can change springs valve stems etc.
My english is poor i put you a link with pictures:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...-pictures.html

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

I think when I first spoke about this new build Gary said to use 3mm spacers.
Yes I can buy uprated springs but when I dont need them thats £300 saved.
But yes Perry I should of checked before fitting the head! lol
Ah I see, thanks Rick! Are you 100% sure that the gasket can be reused? Will it still compress like it should?
Looks like I'm taking them all out so I will make sure they are in the correct way up, thanks!
Thanks Geoff, been very distracted with other things but back into it now.
Mate there is no need to get the arse hole with me, you replied with a very generic question which made no sense hence my reply.
Had you of said, the spacers are not needed and thats whats wrong I would have understood!
Thanks for that link mate.

Canada1

300 pounds for springs? Where are you guys getting your parts from?
That price is like $650.00 - Get your springs from the USA - online.

What valve spring pressure are you looking for?
Shimming valvesprings 1mm is alot - you may get enough pressure with factory springs shimmed 1 mm.

juffer

This maybe one for rick or gary. Can you use saxo or pug gti springs?

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

I'm using the ST170 springs, without spacers now! lol

Rick

Yes, you can reuse the gasket no problem at all, we've done it a few times for one reason or another and never had a gasket failure. I've done it on CVH's with fibre gaskets too, but Zetec MLS gaskets are less sensitive too it.

Perry - crazy huh!

They are specially made springs from Ian Howell, I have a set. It was convenient at the time to get them and they are proven to work. The Kent/Piper uprated springs aren't stiff enough. For over 25psi or so at high rpm, Ian does double valve springs which need custom valve stem seals and possibly some machining to get them to fit too - they are getting on £5-600 i think.

Rick

Rogeyboy

iTrader: (2)

Bit of a muddle up then, glad to hear its all sorted m8!

Canada1

Hello Karlos,

I looked futher into the valvespring issue here. The ST170 is the same engine as the Zetec SVT engine over here.

The SVT (170 hp) zetec has longer valves, and also longer valve springs too -
If one used standard zetec valve springs in an ST170 or SVT, you would require spacers - as the standard zetec springs are shorter.

You certainly don't need a spacer using st170 springs in a standard zetec head. You should still check for coil bind without spacers as this will be compressed more than an ST170.

Measure the installed height (retainer on the valve without spring) can get valve spring height checking tool for cheap.
Check spring for pressures - closed spec and open.
Also check how close to coil bind.

Sounds like a pain in the ass, but well worth it. You have to know what spring pressures you have. Nothing like bouncing valves with weak spring pressure - and blowing a motor.

Cheers

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

Thanks Perry, as Rick has done this before and we know it works I have simply stripped it down and removed the spacers and built it back up! lol
Will be dropping it in the bay tomorrow!

bomsch

iTrader: (1)

Whay do you need "uprated" springs? Standard zetec head with 22psi of boost will give you 300+ bhp between 5000-6000rpm and stock springs are meant to work up until 6500+ rpm

rhinopower

You've checked valve clearance this time? And chucking new headbolts on?

The most fiddley bit by far I found is getting the cambelt tension right.

Canada1

Why would one only want a 6000 rpm limit? (stock springs with boost will not go to 6500)

6000 rpm is for p-ssies. Why not have extra protection for revs? Who knows, maybe a camshaft upgrade to get into the sweet sounding 7000+ rpm range.

I fell in love with the sound of revs after driving a 1968 911 Porsche lightweight track car with a 906 engine. At 9000 rpm it was pure pleasure to the ears.

zippyobrien

iTrader: (2)

I got issues at 12 psi on a zetec turbo with standard valve springs. There an essentail to up grade really

bomsch

iTrader: (1)

I love sound of revs also, but we spoked about turbo engines.
My friend has mark1 track car with 2l bottom end and 1,8 xr2/rs1800 head. MS management and rev limiter is set up to 8000rpm with stock internals. So zetec turbo with 7000rpm is ok for sound. Any hp gains you dont get with normal size turbo imo.
What kind of issues?

zippyobrien

iTrader: (2)

Massive misfires were the springs weren't strong enough.

On the flip side I ran a rs1800 on ms with a rev limit of 8200 on a stock set up ( just arp bolts) and that screamed all the way up.

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

Because you get valve float over 12psi with stock springs.
Yup all good now and yeah new head bolts of course!
Exactly

Canada1

Keep us updated Karlos!
Love to see details of this build.

Pictures too would be nice

project rs

just to let you know karlos ford re use the standard head bolts on zetecs 3 times and punch a dot on the top to let you know how many times they've been used and just to clarify rick uses a st head not a standard head like you

JesseT

The pug springs are 3mm shorter than the silvertop springs. No idea of the black top springs. I guess they are not interchangebale in any case as the black top springs are slightly tapered.
Because I'm planning using my pug springs with my silver top, what kind of spacers did you use? Any pictures?

juffer

can i use spacers under standard springs in a blacktop head? what psi and what rev limit will it cope with?
ta

primedog

on the valve spring issue..... i have 0.9 bar of boost (13/14 psi) I'm running 245bhp 225ft/lb

my springs are unknown.... but are fine at the minute. i bought the engine n it had c20let pistons done n all other mods etc, but unsure wether the valve springs were changed......
i have st170 springs in the garage, I'm doing head gasket at the moment making it the perfect time to change springs. just wondering if its 12psi strictly that u get valves floating or a rough idea. as if I'm running 14psi could this be a fluke or does this point towards different springs?

primedog

and I'm planning on more boost... for the record

Karlos G

iTrader: (4)

I would change them just to be sure mate, 14psi is too close to call, if it were 20psi then I'd say they have been done.