For those interested in MegaSquirt EFI...

[Karlos G]

Spark looks ok other than the idle is quite advanced, but the Fuel table looks messy mate even ignoring above 14psi (200kpa) where you've not mapped yet, looks like you just need to put some more time in mapping it maybe? FYI My spark duration is also 0.7

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[xr2wishy]

as i said, still remapping car after altering fuel pressure a little, really sent the whole thing out loads.
it is a rough map as i only started working on it a couple of runs earlier but had to use it so switched ego correction on.
idle advance was turned up a tad the other day as it keeps bogging down on 0-light throttle at first, really leans out on the first bit of accelerator.

[project rs]

you tried the fuel cut of to help out

[Karlos G]

Originally Posted by xr2wishy

as i said, still remapping car after altering fuel pressure a little, really sent the whole thing out loads.
it is a rough map as i only started working on it a couple of runs earlier but had to use it so switched ego correction on.
idle advance was turned up a tad the other day as it keeps bogging down on 0-light throttle at first, really leans out on the first bit of accelerator.

Yeah maybe just some more time on it will see better economy, nothing really wrong otherwise.
If it leans out on the first bit of accelerator and 'hangs' for a second then you need to adjust the Accel Enrichment until it doesnt do it, when the throttle body opens the engine takes a big gulp of air and the you need to give it a bit more fuel briefly to compensate.

[xr2wishy]

Originally Posted by project rs

you tried the fuel cut of to help out

i did have that on before i changed fuel pressure and map went way out.
it did help a bit.

[BRAM]

Just read all this thread its quite intresting wouldnt mind having ago at it my self. Do you get instructions with the kit and whitch is the best one to get? Also do you have to sort out your own base map or can you get them off the net somewhere?

[Karlos G]

If you buy from www.extraefi.co.uk then yes there is instructions for fitting, setting up, even basic mapping principles.
Also they will supply you with a base map that should be close enough to get your car started, or there are a few of us on here that can sort you one out

[BRAM]

Thanks karlos will you be at central day so i can pop over and have a look at your car?

[Karlos G]

Not sure yet mate, if i'm ran in and reliable then I might pop down for the day!
Having just built the engine, fitted a new gearbox, LSD, Hydraulic clutch, and quick rack there is still plenty of time for teething problems... Like my alternator chewing through my bottom rad Samco!

[Chopshop85]

Haha countdown to boost. I remember that stage of my engine. It was rubbish!

[bomsch]

Originally Posted by S13RAM

Just read all this thread its quite intresting wouldnt mind having ago at it my self. Do you get instructions with the kit and whitch is the best one to get?

MS-2 for now, however MS-3 is coming soon.

The MS3 also gives you a starting point for even more expansion. You will be able to connect the pin headers on this board to additional hardware, such as the MS3X board (not yet released) or other cards to enable features like these:

* 8 channels sequential fuel control
* 8 channel sequential ignition control
* Individual fuel and spark trim for cylinder by cylinder tuning
* 2 and 3 channel PWM IAC control
* 2 stage nitrous controller
* Table switching for multi-fuel engines
* 2 step launch control
* And more!

[Rick]

And i've been lucky enough to have onse since last year

[xr2wishy]

/\ git!
mine will have to wait as i'm skint, so ms2 for now. i so want sequential injection to make it more efficient and time the squirts perfectly.

[Rick]

You don't need MS3 for sequential, MS2 will do it fine, you just need to add some injector drivers. One of these is ideal:
http://www.jbperf.com/p&h_board/v2_0.html

It's a proper peak and hold 4 channel driver module. Or you could use the v1.1 board which sits inside the original MS case.

Rick

[DazC]

Is MS easy to map? The amout on load sites makes it look pretty easy as there isn't much to do.

This is a spark table out of my ECU for comparison. The fuel table has just as many load sites.

[Karlos G]

Fuck me that is a lot of load sites!!! lol
What management is it Daz?

[DazC]

Life Racing F88RS. Thats been reduced by about 6 load sites along the rpm axis as well. There is obviously correction tables on top of that and there is just as many for the fuel table too.

I assume that the MS is relatively easy to map in comparrison with having less load sites.

[bomsch]

Just had a dyno-day yesterday. 1.8zvh 235whp /torque 342nm.
Running on MS-1. AFR was not on its best- 11,5 on full boost (1,1bar). Some horses went there.

[Karlos G]

Originally Posted by DazC

Life Racing F88RS. Thats been reduced by about 6 load sites along the rpm axis as well. There is obviously correction tables on top of that and there is just as many for the fuel table too.

I assume that the MS is relatively easy to map in comparrison with having less load sites.

Yes mate it is, the tables as you can see are only 12x12 and 16x16!

Originally Posted by bomsch

Just had a dyno-day yesterday. 1.8zvh 235whp /torque 342nm.
Running on MS-1. AFR was not on its best- 11,5 on full boost (1,1bar). Some horses went there.

Good work mate
11.5:1 isnt that far off what it should be 11.8:1 doubt you will have lost much fella.

Post your graph and spec up mate be interested to see how and where it makes power!

[Rick]

MS tables are fully interpolated using least squares method. More is not better in this case.

[xr2wishy]

fookin 'ell Daz, that is a load of variables to be entered in there.
MS is easy in comparrison and even on the MS3 which could have handled more that 16x16, there was little point making it any bigger really.
i'd quite happily show you how easy it is anytime pal.

p.s. Karlos, done a bit of mapping and we're running sweet now, never really get chance to do any these days, so ends up shite like my last session did. alls good now and have turned EGO off as it was ruining running if i switched off after a run then started up a minute later as the wideband has to enter warmup mode and sends erroneous data to ecu till it's up to temp.

[bomsch]

Originally Posted by Karlos G

Good work mate
11.5:1 isnt that far off what it should be 11.8:1 doubt you will have lost much fella.

Post your graph and spec up mate be interested to see how and where it makes power!

I have heard target a/f ratio for boost is anywhere between 12.5:1 and 13.5:1. anything in there will be fine.
With slipping stock clutch. Thats why there is spike on the graph. One of my friends gained 50php with this correction, increasing AFR 11,...- up to 13,....
http://www.youtube.com/user/MTechVid.../0/jLWX-FCJdVs

[Karlos G]

Originally Posted by bomsch

I have heard target a/f ratio for boost is anywhere between 12.5:1 and 13.5:1. anything in there will be fine.
With slipping stock clutch. Thats why there is spike on the graph. One of my friends gained 50php with this correction, increasing AFR 11,...- up to 13,....

No mate thats far too lean for a RST!!
12.5:1 will make good power but without monitoring it for detonation it's too close to a meltdown.
IMO 13.5:1 is ridiculous for a forced induction engine, it will run way to hot and you'll have to retard the timing massively to stop Det.

[bomsch]

Originally Posted by Karlos G

No mate thats far too lean for a RST!!
12.5:1 will make good power but without monitoring it for detonation it's too close to a meltdown.
IMO 13.5:1 is ridiculous for a forced induction engine, it will run way to hot and you'll have to retard the timing massively to stop Det.

But in this same forum people have got 350+ bhp with 2.1 ZVH. It´s the same head for their engine and mine. Where did they get their 100+ bhp if it´s so dangerous? of course EGT cauge is vital.

[Karlos G]

It will make power for sure but how long will the engine last?
I supose if there is not Det and the EGT's are not too high then it's ok...... just seems way to lean to me!

The extra 100bhp can be down to many things... Turbo, port work, valve size, cam, valve timing, ignition timing, CR, ACT's, manifolds, etc..etc...

[xr2wishy]

nowt wrong with running higher afr's, however peak torque is around 13.5 and peak horsepower is around 12.5.
running too lean for too long will make things get a little too hot for sure, too rich and you sacrifice power for safety.
basically you want it as lean as you can get without DET and EGT's getting too high.
the extra richness keeps the cylinders and pistons cooler, all engines pretty much have similar tolerances to heat and an rst is no different. i have run on boost at 12.5 without problems, but retarding ignition is needed to do this safely.
with careful monitoring you can get it as lean as you like safely, just start rich and lean out as it's much safer to do this.

[xr2wishy]

p.s. a 2.1 zvh has more capacity than a smaller engine, i know of a 1.8zvh pushing nigh on 370bhp, mine is around 300bhp with little work apart from a good bit of porting and a 4wd cossie turbo.

[DazC]

Not a chance I would run any forced fed engine that lean. Even a naturally aspirated engine I'd be aiming around 12.5......

[Karlos G]

I have maxed them out on my engine running 18psi @ 7000rpm, the injector duty is at 95%! Although they were fuelling ok at 106% it's too risky that one or more cylinders might be lean so I have had to turn my boost down!

[clarke5700]

Originally Posted by Karlos G

I have maxed them out on my engine running 18psi @ 7000rpm, the injector duty is at 95%! Although they were fuelling ok at 106% it's too risky that one or more cylinders might be lean so I have had to turn my boost down!

im getting worried now my injectors are 365cc/min and the engine ive just built is a 2.1 (ish) zetec i throt they would be fine for around the 250hp mark as i cant afford a decient gearbox maby i should upgrade injectors as well

[Karlos G]

Errr... yeah might be a good idea! lol

[xr2wishy]

my injectors are 440cc and i thnk i'm near the limit at 20psi on 6.5krpm on my 1.8zvh.
looking for bigger ones already.

[DazC]

Mine are about 640cc and have plenty of duration left. Even at 2 bar of boost on a GT2871R.

[clarke5700]

Originally Posted by Karlos G

Errr... yeah might be a good idea! lol

its just my mate was running 360's on his 2.1 and stew @msd maped it to 16psi on a t34.63

so i thort they would be fine for now

[Karlos G]

Well maybe they will be ok then, I would of thought a bigger engine would need more fuel than a smaller one as it flows a lot more air?!

[clarke5700]

hummm i gess ill have to see

[clarke5700]

Originally Posted by Karlos G

Well maybe they will be ok then, I would of thought a bigger engine would need more fuel than a smaller one as it flows a lot more air?!

i was thinking about my injectors and i cant think why my mates were fine on his zetec but you are maxing yours out at 18psi

i was thinking about it on the way into what fuel pump are you useing? do you think maby your presure is droping off?

my mates st turbo has gone to totd for mapping this week hes running 440's and they seem to think they will be fine with his gt30 and hes looking for around 320hp

[Rick]

It's because the BSFC on an 8v CVH is much higher than on a multivalve engine. You'll struggle to get 300 out of 440's on a CVH.

Don't forget the ST has 5 of them so 330 is no problem.

[Karlos G]

For anyone that didnt know (including me) what BSFC is...
It's the ratio of an engines fuel consumption to an engines power output as measured at the flywheel.
BSFC has units of grams of fuel per kilowatt-hour (g/kWh) or pounds mass of fuel per brake horsepower-hour (lb/bhp-hr).
BSFC is a measure of engine efficiency!

So basically the little CVH is not very efficient and needs a lot more fuel to make the same power as an engine with a lower BSFC

[johnenright150rst]

How have you all learned how to map ms? I have rebuilt my engine, car , painted it everything realy so I'd like to map it myself to.
How hard is it to get the map to a "safe" standard?
Btw carlos loving your work, very interesting top job