Tuning a small turbo cossie

[whitevanman]

hi all Im looking to buy a small turbo cossie but would love to know the tuning potential (i.e stage 1=260-270 stage 2=300-310) i'm looking for about 330-340 bhp. also what's the reliability on one with this sort of power ( i understand any car or engine can let go at anytime without warning ) so mainly chutch, gearbox etc.

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[cos jon]

If your looking for 330-340 bhp from a small turbo you'd need deep pockets and have to get a big turbo conversion on it, the small turbo struggles with anything over 300 bhp unless you chuck alot of money into it.

Your best bet would be to get a big turbo to start with .....

[cossymad]

http://www.passionford.com/forum/vie...asc&highlight=

Try this link if it works!!!

[whitevanman]

thanks that link helped lots cheers again . so it looks like 300 bhp is what i'm looking for then and i take it that filter, exhaust ,fuel pump and chip with take me there

[PewteRS]

Just get a big turbo car to start with

[cos jon]

I don't think many of the 305bhp conversions actually make that anyway, maybe nearer 280bhp....

[S1rst]

Originally Posted by cos jon

I don't think many of the 305bhp conversions actually make that anyway, maybe nearer 280bhp....

Apparently so, but it must depend on the state of the engine to start with as mine makes 301 bhp and i know of quite a few others that make 300 too.

[whitevanman]

so what you got to get 301 and is it loads better than standard .
plus what you getting out of a tank of petrol
cheers

[S1rst]

Originally Posted by whitevanman

so what you got to get 301 and is it loads better than standard .
plus what you getting out of a tank of petrol
cheers

GGR305 conversion, magnex de-cat, uprated turbo, uprated fuel pump, regulator and actuator, pipercross induction, aquamist, holding about 20psi. Theres so much difference between a standard one obviously as your talking 70 odd bhp or about 30% more power.

Not sure on how many miles to a tank, but worked it out at about 28-29 mpg a while back which i was very suprised with, although i dont really drive it hard at all.

[whitevanman]

what turbo you got and i take it the 301 is it the flywheel

[S1rst]

Turbotechnics 360 turbo, yes 301 at flywheel.

[whitevanman]

what kind of price is a Turbotechnics turbo and where would you get one from .

[S1rst]

Mine was about Ł1000 ish but that was a few years ago now.

http://www.turbotechnics.com/

[whitevanman]

are there any alternatives i.e gt28

[cossymad]

There are loads, but the fact is you do not need a huge turbo, as you cannot flow enough fuel to keep up with the ammount of air you can pass through boost.
Mine is 303bhp @21psi (1.5bar). The turbo I am running is basically a standard housing, with Nissan Sunny GTi-R internals and a 360 bearing etc etc. Actuator is same. This has done 40,000 miles on the car in it's current form.
With a Magnex system (de-cat) or any other, Mongoose, Scorpion etc, you will be able to creep up the BHP ladder. I have a cone filter (stainless Blitz one), all the Samco hoses, and I got a chip made for my spec, but with no Boost limiter, or Rev limiter built into it, so I can set it up and drive it how I fell it needs.
At this stage the power was 287bhp and 303lbft, which was very good and nice to drive. This stage of tune was when I went head to head with the stage 3 big turbo one in Performance Ford.
The recorded performance at this time, were as follows;
0-60 4.9secs
1/4 mile 13.5secs
161 mph max speed
The car had the same lag as from new (i.e. very little) and was beautiful to drive, and thrash at the same time.
After this level I got some cams fitted- BD10 inlet and exhaust, and I saw the power figures jump to 303bhp and 299lbft. Great, but now I had an annoying flat spot on pull away, but midrange torque felt alot stronger. In driving terms, at 60-140mph my mates EVO7 @ 367bhp would pull past me very slowly, but after the cams were fitted, the situation was reversed and I now pull past him very slowly.
There will always be an argument about small turbo versus big turbo, and in fairness the tuning potential of the big turbo, Ł for Ł, is cheaper than on the small turbo. However, and this rarely is mentioned, the later EEC4 small turbo engine is far superior block, oil ways, and head design,larger throttle body and improved inlet design and thus a greater building block than the old T34 specced cossies.
I own a small turbo, and a large turbo cossy, and which do I prefer?
Small turbo hands down. Don't get me wrong for shera brut power the larger turbo is more exciting, and with a nice bit of lag, pretty scarey on a track too. But for driveability, the small turbo wins hands down.
I was once told "For the ultimate track car, you should take the engine out of your blue one, and put it in your orange one" - I agree, but can't be arsed!!!

[S1rst]

Originally Posted by cossymad

After this level I got some cams fitted- BD10 inlet and exhaust, and I saw the power figures jump to 303bhp and 299lbft.

I was told bt the previous owner that mine has the BD10's fitted but dont have any receipts for them. Will i be able to tell if i take cam cover off for a look?

Cheers.

[cossymad]

Originally Posted by S1rst

I was told bt the previous owner that mine has the BD10's fitted but dont have any receipts for them. Will i be able to tell if i take cam cover off for a look?

Cheers.

Impossible to tell, other than slightly lumpy or erratic idle, flat spot on launching, or a decent mapper / tuner would be able to tell.
If not it's whip them out and send them off to kent/ piper.
The difference in the cams is minute 0.013" @ tdc and 0.010" valve lift difference. Not much chance of seeing that!!!

[S1rst]

Well it idles totally smooth so maybe there standard then? Would it be possible to get 301bhp without them though?

[cossymad]

Anythings possible, but I couldn't.
I asked Piper to get me some cams, and what the increase would be. They said 16bhp- they were right.
You have water injection on yours, which would significantly improve ACT's and as a result, BHP. Also all rollers are not the same, nor are the conditions in which cars are tested. I personally couldn't care what BHP is claimed from my car, but how it drives in relation to others on the same road / track at the same time, although it is a good way of guiding performance, and good to boast about down the pub. I usually quote driveway figures. "I have 723bhp Cosworth power!"
In a straightline, it is a different situation, but a well set up, decent tyred Cossy will always outperform a big BHP badly set up cossy with crap tyres!!!

[Stu @ M Developments]

There may be some new tuning options on teh horizon as i have a small turbo car here on long term loan with a rather nice looking T34 bolted to it and a lot of mapping gear...

I have always wanted to try live mapping one with a bigger turbo and maybe even bigger injectors, but have never had a car to keep for long enough to have a play with a "Happy if we win or lose" Type Customer who is willing to loan his car for the development. Now i have and will be trying towards the end of this week and most of next to get some power out of the system and see where its REAL limit is.


Watch this space.

[sailorbob]

Sounds good Stu, does the new software have a definition for the ST Escort?

[the youth]

Nice one stu looking forward to the results, although I wouldn't mind the halfway house of just a T3, nice compromise between power and lag.
would like to know if this could be fitted instead?

steve

[Stu @ M Developments]

Originally Posted by sailorbob

Sounds good Stu, does the new software have a definition for the ST Escort?

I took the plunge and bought all the SCT software last year Bob. Its quite good and they are getting better at converting the UK stuff now. opens up a few secrets we didnt have access to, so may well be usefull.

[sailorbob]

I'm jealous I'd love to know if what I've got figured out ties in with the commercial stuff.

Can you access things like the MAF and MAP transfer tables?

BTW, did you ever manage to see if the EGR problem could be sorted?

[Stu @ M Developments]

Originally Posted by sailorbob

I'm jealous I'd love to know if what I've got figured out ties in with the commercial stuff.

Can you access things like the MAF and MAP transfer tables?

BTW, did you ever manage to see if the EGR problem could be sorted?

Yes mate, its actually very impressive what you can access. That said, they have yet to do me a decent profile for this particular revision of Ecu, so we may yet fall at the first hurdle. We will see later this week all being well.

That EGR loop will be an interesting one indeed, as Ford said they couldnt revise the software and it was a known problem...

[sailorbob]

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

We will see later this week all being well.

Keep us all posted

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

That EGR loop will be an interesting one indeed, as Ford said they couldnt revise the software and it was a known problem...

Sound more like they just aren't interested, if I can kill EGR on a late eec-iv so can they!

[S1rst]

Will be interesting to hear the results.

[Stu @ M Developments]

Originally Posted by sailorbob

Keep us all posted

Sound more like they just aren't interested, if I can kill EGR on a late eec-iv so can they!

It wasnt a ford dealer i was talking to, it was a development engineer who works on the software side, and he said disabling it on the present/not present switch created a further issue with overrun fuelling... What issue exactly i dont know as i have never personally tried, nor did i ask him as the call itself was about something else...

Time will tell anyway.

[Arnie]

This post comes just in time, as I'm thinking of swapping my big turbo with my mate's small turbo escort! my mate is after big power and is willing to spend, if he does decide to keep the car can he replace the ecu with an after market one and go for big power? or does he need to replace other items as well? eec4 is the only restriction right?

[Azrael]

Arnie I think it is as there is an Escos here in Poland that was originally ST but now runs RS500 spec T4 and does over 400bhp - managed by Motec ECU.

[Arnie]

If it's just a matter of replacing the ecu (Motec is a good choice), then I don't see what the problem is, it's quite straight forward isn't it?

[Mr.Ford]

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

There may be some new tuning options on the horizon as i have a small turbo car here on long term loan with a rather nice looking T34 bolted to it and a lot of mapping gear...

I have always wanted to try live mapping one with a bigger turbo and maybe even bigger injectors, but have never had a car to keep for long enough to have a play with a "Happy if we win or lose" Type Customer who is willing to loan his car for the development. Now i have and will be trying towards the end of this week and most of next to get some power out of the system and see where its REAL limit is.


Watch this space.

Stu that sounds superb

If it possible to tune the car with just an other ECU, Fuelpump and pressure regulator, actuator etc but without changing the complete EFI system, that would be fantastic

[sailorbob]

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

disabling it on the present/not present switch created a further issue with overrun fuelling.

Odd, I'll have a walk through of the coding and see if anything jumps out that might cause this.

[sailorbob]

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

they have yet to do me a decent profile for this particular revision of Ecu

I meant to ask, which version ecu is it?

[steviecossie]

go for a BIG turbo conversion

[tore_tj]

I'm very excited about this. Always wanted the drivability of the st one..

[tore_tj]

Hmm seeing you're bolting a t-34 to it won't it behave like a large turbo? or is this just for testing purposes?

[sailorbob]

Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments

disabling it on the present/not present switch created a further issue with overrun fuelling

Not been able to spot anything in the code that's jumping out as the cause of this. Very odd, especially considering that EGR isn't active at closed throttle (or WOT). Could always kill the EGR error by changing the code to skip the tests instead.....

[testastretta999]

just convert to autronic ecu and have a roller bearing conversion on your turbo like FRS do and a decat.

[Azrael]

testastretta999 I'm not 100% convinced that Autronic is a way to go on a road car :-/ It may be just shite mappers in POland but all the cars on Autronic I've driven had some problems - especially in wintertime.