JoeE30

For the people in the know, im lookng in to starting my first "stack" and would like some information, just a rough idea on what is a good beginner.



Not that it might not matter but im 210 pounds 6'0" and have been training for about 3 yrs. In the gym for 4 -5 nights a week.

Thanks

RSPTG

Depends on your daily diet (This is more important than supplements) and training really, along with your goals at the time as to what supplements you need.

But I would say first on the list is a fast digesting protien along with simple carbs is No.1 after a session consumed within 45min of finishing. But as you have been training for 3 years you probably already know this.

Best options are as follows,.. in this order;

No.1 An Isolate

No.2 Whey mix

No.3 Solid Food

You could also combine Arginine, creatine, ZMA, BCAA.

Kieron

I have a feeling those are not the type of suppliments Joe is refering to.

JoeE30

Kieron,

Correct i was on about the other sort.............

have been drinking and popin all sorts of pill for three yrs now and just want to go to the next level...

Kieron

Get over to www.muscletalk.co.uk as they have a steriod section and you can openly talk about it on there and get advice.

Martinshuter

probably best to get on miscle talk. But my advice if your into "supplements" is to do 10 weeks of Testosterone Enanthate and use Tamoxifen and Chlomid as the PCT. I gained 2 stone from this cycle. 2 shots a week, each shot at 1ml

juss 1

12 week course of deca and p5 tabs just what arnie used in the 70s and still working today also use tamoxifen through out and hcg 3 weeks towards end of cycle kick your balls back in. use in a pyramid fasnion low does to start peaking at week 5,6,7 then lower towards end.ensure you take a high quality whey protien with aminnos every meal get loads of rem sleep to which can be assisted grately by using 5 grammes of G.A.B.A just before bed time.

1 and a half stone garunteed but lots of it will be water retention.

JoeE30

Thanks to all above, gona try the site..

A lad a work suggested winstol and deca?

Any info from you lads in the know about these two?

juss 1

deca fine so is winstrol but winstrol is made up (with out going to scientific) of a substance called DHT which is the same chemical responsabile for male patter baldness so obviously adding that to your body will result in one thing for certain YOU WILL LOSE YOUR HAIR.As i said pronabol 5 (same as dianabol) and deca let the proof be in the pudding big arnie, franco,sergio, the lot all used it with great effect. get your self on to this web site

http://www.area9.net/

ebery thing you need to know and its british based so every thing is relevant

juss 1

best advice i can give you is read as much as you can and DO use precautionary stuff like novladex or tamoxifen here is a couple of good sites including the one above read what does what etc

http://www.inhousedrugstore.co.uk/general/general.html

http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/index.html

http://www.sports-supplements.co.uk/

lukeytheduke

a good beginers cycle is sustanon, go for a 8 week cycle, 1 shot in the first 2 weeks and last 2 weeks, so u can get the hang of where to inject etc etc

second cycle, same as above but deca too, u dont want to go stronger that that untill u are experianced!!!!!

it will do more harm than good

u should drink 6 litres of water a day and at leat 250g of good quality protein, none of this cheap bollox u get,

LA muscle is the best supplier, go on their website andyoull realise that other protein shakes etc are made up of low grade shit protein

any questions just ask mate

Martinshuter

luke,

i would have to disagree there mate. Speaking from ein depth experience i think a basic 10 week course of Tesosterone enanthate is best. Sustanon is a blend of testosterones which i dont feel is as effective.

Why would you only want to do 1 jab in two weeks? If your using a prop based compound then its a shot every 2 days, if your using an enanthate based compound then its 2 shots a week, but enanthate taked 4 weeks to kick in.

The jab isnt a hard thing! again, there isnt a getting used to it. Its a straightforward intramuscular injection, either in the glute or quad. Prop based jabs always sting more but the pain isnt that bad.

Water intake should be based on how hard you train and how much you sweat. 6 litres of water is a bit excessive if your not doing an oral steroid as they dont go through the liver.

Protein intake of 250g? the average protein intake for a bodybuilder is 1g per every lb of body weight. so roughly base it on that. i take 260g of protein a day but thats because im 18stones. So unless the lad is a big weightlifter there isnt much point of that much protein, a lot will be wasted.

I think you have brought into the whole LA muscle hype. in my opinion they are shit. Good protein can be brought from bulkpowders.co.uk and other places. So long as its not full of sugar it will be ok. Keep the diet strict and you will soon not need as much protein in the way of shakes and protein bars.

lukeytheduke

obviously i would never star using these excellent illegal steriods my cycle is week 1 250ml of sus, then week 2 till lat week , 2 shot of 250ml

i agre ethough it is not the strongest but it is the best steriod to use to start of with as you will not loose as much of your gain as with other steriods,

i only recommneded sus as its a good to start with and hardly and side effects!

Martinshuter

luke,

2ml a week is the best starting point. Like i said its all based on which compound your using. it takes 4 weeks to load into your system so, why havnt you done a frontload or kickstart with an oral steroid?

You will loose quite a lot of the gains, as steroids like that put on a lot of water. I lost 8 pounds of water. Tren is by far the best roid for keeping gains, testosterone based gear is good for bloating you, but when you loose the water you look lean and cut.

hardly any side effects???? same as any other teroid, depends how your body reacts. you could get gyno, hair loss, temper, sleep deprevation.

bigwelshlad

joe e30 : mate you wanna try and stay away from the wink winks and try natural stuff not that i am against it if thats what you want i have gained a lot of weight recently not just through eating as some might say but through training and creatine and protein and whey......ok and a lot of beer

i am not saying i have an athletic body like most on here ....see the sig.... but enjoy my lifting and working out but just consider your future health especially if you are only in you twenties. massive doses of wtf will have an effect later in life

ballin

iTrader: (1)

bigwelshlad, most sensible thing I've seen from you

I'll only say one thing, beware of advice from places like this!

Already we have 2 or 3 people who seem to know a lot about what they are talking about, but each post has some pretty crucial errors:

juss 1 - poor cycle (deca/dbol). yes it was used back in the day, but back in the day they were very much experimenting. I would never advise deca without test. As for pyramiding, nuh uh.
Winstrol is not "made up of DHT" and will not necessarily cause MPB

lukeytheduke
LA Muscle is not the best at all lol, but nevermind, this isnt about protein! 6Ltrs of water is overkill, and sust isnt liver toxic anyway so no need to go over a max of 3ltrs. one in the first and last i disagree with, if anything i would suggest a frontload in the first.

Martinshuter
agree with the 10weeks of test e.
However sust is not a blend of 4 tests at all. testosterone is testosterone, there arent different types. it is a blend of 4 esters, which control how quickly the test is released to the system. apart from that though i agree with everything

All I'm saying is, you need to do your own research and do so for a VERY long time. dont take what others say as gospel as it is not always correct.

no offence to the above people, i was just making a point! im sure you all know what you are doing

Danny @ Enhanced Performance

iTrader: (3)

if you want any advice ask ballin he knows his shit.thats al iv got to say

Steve200+

Deffo sensible advice.

I'm shortly going to start bulding outwards for my own needs, the natural way, but I've probably read more about the body in the last three months than in my entire life, learning how things work, what you need.

I'm not shy of trying certain substances, but I'd prefer to avoid it, and I'm damn sure I'll be reading like a bitchass if I ever decide to, and not taking much input from people on the net (no offence to anyone, but you've no idea who anyone really is, it could be like copying an exam off the thick kid)

You're messing with an incredibly complex system of chemicals, and if done the wrong way, it can and will cause permanent damage, no two ways about it, I'd take my time and make sure that you're 100% clued-up on what you're embarking on.

Just be careful mate, Good Luck

bigwelshlad

respect mate !

people need to stay away from that stuff

although its not all muscle i have put on about 15 stone in about six years - yeah i know i need to lose a lot as well but stay away from that stuff !

ballin

iTrader: (1)

Just seen your pics in the other thread Danny, very very impressive!

And thanks for your kind words, coming from you it means a lot! Have been studying this subject for a long time now has always fascinated me!

christianh3

I wouldn't bother with jabs yet just do a low dose of methandrostenolone (Dianabol) say 20mg per day for a month see how you get on i.e. side effects wise and should still see good gains. Don't run before you can walk take the least amount of gear that still lets you make gains just my opinion.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

any gear tacken for longer than 6weeks is waste of time the resepters have shut by then so it just knocks ur system right out and aby gains is just water

use a fast acting riod so its in and out the system quickly like 2 ml of deca 3 times a week with 1ml probal and sum debol 5 a day for 2 weeks then 2 mls of deca twicw in third week with 3 tabs of debol and start loading creatine 4 week 1 2ml of deca 1 winstrol then come off for 4weeks just use creatine then start another cycle another month later , lees water retention more gains in the long run and less damage to ur system because the gear is in out quick as , remember the resepter will only wirk for 4 weeks

oh and loads of chicken and push like fuck on the training

ballin

iTrader: (1)

receptor only work for 4 weeks??? sorry pal thats bullshit.

and as for "fast in fast out", why are you recommending one of the longest ester drugs in BB'ing? Nandrolone decanate?

fast in fast out would be for example, prop + npp, or prop + tren ace etc

also you are suggesting 4 weeks on, 4 weeks off, 4 weeks on?

wheres the PCT?

come week 7 the deca will still be in your body, so recovery wont have even begun, then a week later you are back on?

the will cause A LOT of problems down the line.

also water retention has nothing to do with receptors? when the gear aromatises it causes estrogen sides, such as bloat.

lastly but not least, a deca cycle without test? nu-uh!!! unless you want no action downstairs

here endeth the lesson

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

each to there own ive messed about with gear for years well not so much the last 6years had time out for family probs but im training again now and the method i said about worked for me butt seeing as ur the expert ill keep me mouth shut

ballin

iTrader: (1)

lol dont take nothing personally, im just throwing light onto the subject!

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

mornin rich i know lol . i was told that the reseptors are only productive for the first 4/6 weeks once a body is loaded with steriods quite a few times in the last 15years including a doctor (my cousin) and there point was as people had learnt this there was no point in taking gear for any longer periods

as i used t o do a 12 week coarse myself and it was mostly just water at the end plus no appetite ect ,so started leaving heaver steriods alone used medium and fast acting stuff like prop decca ect @ 4weeks at a time with creatine on the off cycle not ownly did i go from 19st to 23 but lost the puffy look aand got more definition

ballin

iTrader: (1)

if testosterone levels are high they are high, you will continue to grow as long as you have the motivation....thats the real problem with longer cycles, its not the drugs its the motivation.

i can see where you are coming from re: the short cycles, but all i would say is please dont include deca as you will be doing yourself some serious problems down the line as deca is extremely long acting! traces can be found months later, up to a year iirc.

npp on the other hand is nandrolone phenyl-propionate, so deca but fast acting! (ie. enan>prop deca>npp)

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

yep nandrolone phenyl-propionate is wat ive used 2ml vials 3 times a week ect as what i posted earlier.

i see it as swing and roundabouts rich on a longer coarse theres more water ect the pshycological effect on a longer stack is im biigger wow but the drop in size in my case anywayfrom water ect was more dramatic than a shorter stack and my gains was continual increase rather than up and down like a yoyo

ballin

iTrader: (1)

ah i see, when you said deca that would be decanate, not phenyl-propionate, hence why i was concerned you were using it for a short cycle, seeing as deca is very long acting!

but essentially i agree, short cycles are the best way to go for slow steady gains. recovery is also easier which is a bonus. downside is freq. jabs

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

yeh sorry rich should of explained myself better but we got there lol

ballin

iTrader: (1)

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

So what the fook was that about?


Sounded like a chemistry discussion

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

pmsl

JoeE30

ballin, right i need your advice i have a "mate" standing by ready for my order and he is suggesting 12 week cycle of dianabol and primobolan.

Think he was on about 3 dianabol a day and 3 shots of primobolan a week. As a novice i have no idea if this is any good...

What do you rekon.....?

Cheers for advice in advance

ballin

iTrader: (1)

as a novice mate, no way.

for a start, primo is horendously expensive. no doubt it is an amazing drug, but you seriously pay for it!! and if its not about £60 for 10ml (100mg/ml) then its probably fake!

12 weeks of dianabol would fuck your liver up as well, bloat you massively, make you feel lethargic and no motivation or appetite.

To be honest I'm not suprised your "mate" has recommended that cycle, as its gonna be a tidy little earner for him!

Did he talk about PCT (post cycle therapy) with you? I doubt it!

Here would be my suggestion:

week 1 : 1000mg Testosterone Enanthate
week 2-10 : 500mg Test Enan (2 shots per week)
week 12 : Start PCT

Thats a nice simple cycle that can put on around a stone no problem.

Make sure you know about PCT, I would suggest a nolva + clomid course for about 3 weeks.

If you need any more info then PM me mate, and if you dont mind PM me what you've been quoted and I'll tell you if you're getting shafted!!!

JoeE30

Mate you have pm.

Thanks fr advice...

Ollie.

What sort of damage and side effects do these have on the body over the short term and long term???

You hear all sorts of stories but there seems to be some very clued up people on here and also some with personal experience.

ballin

iTrader: (1)

long term is very hard to say - dont think any long term medical tests have been conducted really.
potentially though, infertility, gyno, prostate cancer, permanent HRT required etc.

short term its much easier to say, side effects can include; heavy acne resulting in permanent scarring, high blood pressure, loss libido, sore joints, [again] gyno etc

a lot of this can be avoided with extra meds, but then most people dont know what they are doing so dont use them.

certain things are very difficult to avoid, and you really need to be clued up to catch them before they happen.
other problems will only be detected with blood work, which I reckon probably 5% of amateur users do! Pro's would be 95%.

Blood work will cost around £100 and is available to everyone very discreetly, will show natural test levels etc. and will show when you are properly recovered from a cycle.


basically they are not something to be played with, and certainly dont use them until you actually need to. they are not the easy option! you may think they are, but let me ask you again in 5-10 years time when SO many users are going to be having some big problems.

Most of the pros and a lot of clued up guys i know really know what they are doing - and are prepared for the side effects.
one of the more knowledgeable guys is now on permanent HRT as his natural test levels have all but disappeared! this is a lot more common than you may think as well! you stick synthetic hormones in your body, and your body will stop creating its own!

it will only bounce back so many times, then it will be permanently shut down!

be careful

Martinshuter

steve,

i think its essential what you say about blood work. I have had mine done very recently after taking 12 weeks off gear. The doc said there would still be traces in my blood of the Nandralone which shocked me. i learned that recovery is more important than cycle because it lets your body fully recover. my first cycle i put on over 2 stone and the second i put on amlost 3. Now im off i have lost all the water bloat and look a lot more ripped and defined.

From my experience testosterone prop or enanthate is the best substance for a beginner.

Steve just out of intrest have you any experience of tren ace? as im going to be cycling tren ace and test prop for 8 weeks.

Jaycos- 23 stone is a massive massive weight. were you competing in powerlifting at all? about 325lbs.

ballin

iTrader: (1)

Martin, got your PM - my name aint Steve tho

As I said previously, nandrolone is one of the longest acting steroids around, it will stay detectable in your blood for months.

I agree enanthate is best for a beginner - and in theory prop is too as its quick in quick out if you get problems. every other day jabs are not really suitable for a beginner though.

tren ace + test prop is an excellent cycle - 6 weeks would be better though